Abigail - Week 4: God Will Be the Judge

Erin Davis: Welcome back to the Women of the Bible Podcast, I’m Erin Davis, and we’ve been walking through a Bible study on Abigail. When you think of the women of the Bible, you might not think about Abigail, but her story is such a treasure. It’s helping us know how to deal with the difficult people in our lives with grace, with discernment, and by honoring the Lord. 

Now, I’m walking through the study with some friends of mine. We are enjoying opening our Bibles and digging into God’s Word together. I hope you have some friends gathered around your table. We just had a really yummy lunch, and I hope you have yummy snacks with the ladies that you are walking through this study with. 

I know you’ve already heard from them, this is episode four, but I would love for them to introduce themselves again. And because we just ate a really yummy lunch, and because I’m always thinking about food, tell them your name and your favorite dessert.

Kesha Griffin: Okay, my name is Kesha Griffin. My favorite dessert . . . hmmmm . . . that’s hard.

Erin: Cause there’s so many good ones.

Kesha: I would say it would have to be some type of cookie. Chocolate chip cookie and ice cream. 

Erin: I like it. That is hard to beat. Okay. How about you?

Joy McClain: Oh, I’m Joy. I agree. Cookies, chocolate, in any way, shape, form. But I also like anything with lemon, especially in the summer. 

Erin: That sounds really good!

Joy: Lemon meringue sounds good right now!

Erin: Yeah it does. I’m Erin Davis, and I’m gonna go with cheesecake. Maybe it’s because we just ate cheesecake, but oh, silky smooth! I actually ate the remaining cheesecake of another girl’s cheesecake because it was so good . . . and I lack self control. But we’re not here to talk about cheesecake—that’s a whole other study—we’re talking about difficult people today. 

We are walking through Abigail. We’ve been looking at our story, and if you’re just picking up or even if you aren’t in a Bible study, if we were in my living room we’d have to do a recap, right? So what’s been happening really sounds like the plot of a good movie. We’ve got a handsome young hero, and he’s on the run from a powerful and jealous man. Who is that powerful and jealous man? Who’s David running from?

Kesha: Saul.

Erin: Saul. You get gold stars, girls. And he’s been unjustly accused by Saul. He stops to help a man named Nabal—who we don’t care for because the Bible describes him . . . How does the Bible describe him?

Kesha: He’s just mean.

Erin: He’s just mean.

Joy: Harsh and evil. 

Erin: He’s harsh and evil. He’s rude. We don’t like him. David is treated as less than, and a fight breaks out. And this is like, “pass the popcorn,” this is getting really good. And all of a sudden, a beautiful woman appears, and she is softly going to speak the truth. 

So we’ve not made it very many verses in 1 Samuel 25, we’re about halfway through the chapter. But Kesha and Joy, I wonder, as we’ve been walking through these verses, is there anything that jumps out at you? Anything about the people in this story? The character of God? Or just truth that’s been bubbling up to the surface as you’ve been going through this study? 

Kesha: I just really have been focusing on Abigail. The level of discernment and wisdom and courage and just being a peacemaker. I see her as being a peacemaker.

Erin: I love that word! I wouldn’t have thought of that word for her, but that’s absolutely true.

Kesha: Yes, I see her as a peacemaker. She’s trying to bring peace to her household and protect her household. But also, just her approaching David to me is something a peacemaker would do.

Erin: Yes, I love that. Joy, what’s bubbling up in you?

Joy: I like that, too. It’s very good. I don’t know that I would have thought of peacemaker, but I love that. I have that she saw God in the big picture. She called David to that and reminded him whose he is and encouraged him to think about who is really doing the battle here. 

Erin: Yep. We’ve got to keep bringing ourselves to that focus in the passage. I think the gravitational pull of our hearts in everything—and even when we’re reading Scripture—is to look for us. What am I supposed to do here? I think as women we want to be pleasing, we want to be good wives, we want to be good mothers, we want to be good sisters. So we tend to read a passage and go, “Okay, what am I supposed to do to be better here?” 

I love, Joy, that you bring us back to the Lord, because this isn’t about character traits, it’s not just about conflict resolution. The things that we see and love in Abigail are there because she’s a woman of faith; she loves the Lord. And that is how we are going to become the Abigails that we want to be. 

I know we already read Abigail’s words to David. David was on his way to, we have to guess, kill Nabal. “Get your swords.” He’s bringing an army, and Abigail intervenes. Joy, will you just recap her words? They’re found in 1 Samuel 5:30–38.

Joy: Yes. 

“And when the Lord has done to my lord according to all the good that he has spoken concerning you and has appointed you prince over Israel, my lord shall have no cause of grief or pangs of conscience for having shed blood without cause or for my lord working salvation himself. And when the Lord has dealt well with my lord, then remember your servant.”

And David said to Abigail, “Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me! Blessed be your discretion, and blessed be you, who have kept me this day from bloodguilt and from working salvation with my own hand! For as surely as the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, who has restrained me from hurting you, unless you had hurried and come to meet me, truly by morning there had not been left to Nabal so much as one male.” Then David received from her hand what she had brought him. And he said to her, “Go up in peace to your house. See, I have obeyed your voice, and I have granted your petition.”

And Abigail came to Nabal, and behold, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk. So she told him nothing at all until the morning light. In the morning, when the wine had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him, and he became as a stone. And about ten days later the Lord struck Nabal, and he died.

Erin: Really does feel like a Hollywood movie, right? I mean, David is up in arms. He’s ready to fight, and he tells us his intentions. He was going to slaughter the house of Nabal, and actually, Abigail would have been spared, because he says he’s going to slaughter every male. And Abigail so graciously responds, and David has a change of heart. She goes home, and we see again the character of Nabal. Cause what’s Nabal doing? He’s insulted the anointed king, and then what’s he doing? 

Joy: He’s feasting!

Erin: He’s partying!

Joy: Having a merry time.

Erin: He’s drunk. He’s having a feast like a king in his home. He doesn’t even know the threat that is creeping outside the walls of his property. He finds out, and his heart becomes like a stone, and he eventually dies. 

But let’s go back to Abigail’s words. Who does she ultimately remind David is going to handle the situation? She’s not talking about herself. She doesn’t say, “I’m going to handle this. I’m going to talk to Nabal. I can fix this.” Who does she ultimately point David to as the resolver of this situation? 

Joy: The Lord.

Erin: The Lord. That’s right. She mentions the Lord over and over and over. I have to think that’s what got David—that’s what turned his heart. Because how does everybody describe David? What’s the description we know of him? He’s a man after God’s own heart! He’s a man who values the word of the Lord. 

I want to take us back a chapter to 1 Samuel 24, because there’s an interesting contrast happening here. What happens in 24 is that David has the chance to kill Saul. Remember, Saul is still king, but Saul is just crazy with all this jealousy. He’s enraged; he wants to kill David. And David has the chance to kill Saul, but he doesn’t take it. Kesha, do you have 1 Samuel 24:10–15?

Kesha: I do. 

Behold, this day your eyes have seen that the Lord had given you today into my hand in the cave, and some said to kill you, but my eye had pity on you; and I said, “I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the Lord’s anointed.” Now, my father, see! Indeed, see the edge of your robe in my hand! For in that I cut off the edge of your robe and did not kill you, know and perceive that there is no evil or rebellion in my hands, and I have not sinned against you, though you are lying in wait for my life to take it. May the Lord judge between you and me, and may the Lord avenge me on you; but my hand shall not be against you. 

As the proverb of the ancients says, “Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness;” but my hand shall not be against you. After whom has the king of Israel come out? Whom are you pursuing? A dead dog, a single flea? The Lord therefore be judge and decide between you and me; and may He see and plead my cause and deliver me from your hand.” (NASB)

Erin: What a passionate speech that David’s giving. I mean, the corner of Saul’s robe is indicative of, “I could have killed you! I was within striking distance!” But why did David choose not to kill Saul?

Joy: He trusted God to do it.

Erin: He trusted God to deal with him.

Kesha: May the Lord avenge.

Erin: May the Lord avenge. That happens right before this encounter with Nabal. He’s fleeing from that encounter. He refuses to take matters into his own hands with Saul, but he gets a little spiritual amnesia here with Nabal, right? Nabal insults him, and he’s going to take action. And we are all prone to spiritual amnesia. I wonder: what truth about God are you prone to forget? Here David forgets, briefly, that God is able to defend him. But what truths about God are you most prone to forget? 

Kesha: I think that just that. That God is our avenger. He is the one who will take vengeance, and justice is in His hands ultimately. I also think that it shows that He is our protector. He’s also our help in these times of trouble as well. So that’s what I see.

Erin: Yes. What are you prone to forget, Joy?

Joy: His love. In this study, my favorite words throughout this entire study is when it’s described as “we are bundled in His love.” No matter what we’re facing, no matter what the circumstances, no matter how hard, no matter how we’re crying out, or how difficult it is, He loves me. He is for me. I forget that in a moment of panic or when something comes up, or just even in a long duration of waiting. We can forget. We can get that amnesia. He is still for me. 

Erin: What’s that word picture to you of being “bundled in His love?” There’s an image in my mind; I wonder what the image is for you.

Joy: It’s like a fleece folded over. Just like we are “hemmed in,” as the Word tells us. “Behind and before,” all these things. (see Ps. 139:5). We are completely, almost “cradled” like Isaiah says. We are so close to His heart, and just cradled, folded in. I love that image.

Kesha: When you said that I was just thinking about how Jesus said, “I wish to gather you like a mother chick.” That’s how I picture it.

Erin: That sweet language. I think of my swaddled babies. I still have one baby I swaddle him up to sleep. He’s bundled, he’s swaddled, he’s safe. But he forgets! The next time he gets tired he’s still like, “Waaaaahhhh!” I have to bundle him back up again, and for me that’s the word picture. We know that! I mean, we’ve known it since we were little. “Jesus loves us, this we know; for the Bible tells us so.” But I forget, too. 

Joy: Yes, we fling and flail like a tired toddler. Something comes up and we panic. We need to be bundled up. I love that; just love that image.

Erin: And Scripture describes His love as everlasting. It’s an everlasting love, but I forget that’s the kind of love it is. I think I forget most often that He will take care of me. Where I default all the time is, “I’ve got to take care of me. I’ve got to handle this. I’ve got to make it work. I’ve got to make it happen.” Or, “I’ve got to figure it out,” or “It’s on my shoulders.” I know better. I know I can’t handle things. I can’t even handle my laundry, goodness! But I forget, and so I have to remind myself all the time. 

One of the ways I remind myself of truth is I’ll just write it on my arm with a Sharpie because I need it that present. I need to see it that often.

As you think about your own spiritual amnesia, what are the ways you snap yourself out of it? Joy, how do you remind yourself that you’re bundled in the love of God. 

Joy: Taking time out. I mean, I am so Type A (like you all), and I can be driven by my list or my to-do or my perfections or expectations. So when I say, “Stop. You need to spend time, not just in the Word, but just pull away, get away, unplug my phone, get off my laptop, get away, walk away.” 

Yesterday I spent time down by the river, and just prayed, Remind me, Lord, of how much You love me. So I have to make a conscious effort to pull away from all my lists, from myself, my agenda, basically, and just purposefully set aside that time just to be drenched in His presence, to take the time.

Erin: How do you remind yourself of truth? 

Kesha: I would say the same. I remind myself by stepping back. Sometimes it means to not do any work. Just nothing. Like nothing. Because once I start I’m going to seek to finish everything on the list. So sometimes I just can’t even start certain tasks, I just need to not do it. But I also notice that once I’m stressed is when I realize how much I’m trying to do everything on my own. So I start getting grumpy, less patient. All of these heart issues, like anxiousness, I can trace it back to: Oh, that’s because you’re trying to do this on your own. 

Erin: You forgot.

Kesha: I forgot. It’s funny, because then I convict myself because I know the Scriptures. So I’m thinking about abiding in Christ, so I’m convicting myself because I think, You know these Scriptures, now you need to apply it. Like, right now is the time to do that.

Erin: I think we see in David something similar, because his heart turned quickly. I think we see a man who was rooted in truth. Because when he’s confronted with the truth by Abigail, he doesn’t dig in. He doesn’t plow through her and take out what he meant. He is, “Oh. Thank you!” There’s a graciousness in him. 

So I just want to circle back to Abigail’s response in 1 Samuel 25:26, “Now then my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, because the Lord has restrained you from bloodguilt and from saving with you own hand . . .” That’s that self-sufficiency you and I were talking about, “. . . now then let you enemies and those who seek to do evil to my lord be as Nabal.” 

She’s saying, “Let God deal with it. Let God deal with it.” And that’s such an important reminder. And David responds. What words would you use to describe David’s response to Abigail ? 

Joy: I think he had to submit. I mean, we all have those fiery moments where we just lose it, and we’ve got to get a grip. She calls him back to that, and he was tired. He was probably hungry.

Erin: Stressed? 

Joy: He was stressed. There was a lot going on, right? There was the grief. We talked about that initially in lesson one.

Erin: He’s probably got a lot of adrenaline pumping through his body, and he’s enraged.

Joy: Right, and so I think just that he was able to just calm down—self control. I suppose the self-control meant a lot.

Erin: How would you describe his response?

Kesha: I think he had an “ah-ha” moment, basically. Like, “Oh yeah, you’re right. Yeah, I should be be acting this way.” And it happened quickly. I think not only just the “ah-ha” moment, but probably also a heart of humility. I do see a heart of humility there in David in his response. He could have said, “Do you know who I am? I know the Word. I know the Lord; I’m the Lord’s anointed.” He didn’t go there. He knew, and he responded in a humble way. 

Erin: Don’t you find that the longer you walk with the Lord, the sooner your heart turns to repentance?

Kesha: Oh absolutely!

Erin: Now there are times when I obey still kicking and screaming. I’m grateful that the Lord honors kicking and screaming obedience, because I do a lot of that. But the longer I walk with Him, the sooner I turn towards repentance. And that’s what we see in David. 

Kesha: Because you know more.

Erin: I think I’ve got a bigger view of God! 

Kesha: You’ve got a bigger view; you know more.

Erin: Yes. I mean, David knew this. He knew the Lord was going to take care of it. He just needed that reminder. 

Joy: And that muscle you talked about in the previous episode. It has been exercised over and over again like it was in Abigail so that we come to expect God’s movement, His hand, His faithfulness. I think the more we trust in Him, the more we practice that, and the more we live that . . .

Kesha: . . . the more we can recognize it. Right? Like David recognized pretty quickly.

Erin: Right away!

Kesha: Right away. And in fact, David, well, I might be jumping ahead . . .

Erin: Oh, go ahead.

Kesha: David actually gave praise to God because he recognized who it was that was sending Abigail his way. Right? This is all the Lord. “The Lord sent you to me.”

Erin: He recognizes the sovereign hand of God. I love that. That’s so true. You described Abigail as a peacemaker, and she was, but she’s also a truth-speaker. Man, I want to be known as a truth-speaker. Now, I’m a bulldog. My personality is all bulldog, all the time. So I can sin, as a truth-speaker, in the way that I approach people. She is a peacemaking truth-speaker. Which I think is such a gem.

Kesha: Why do you think that stood out to me?

Erin: It’s beautiful!

Kesha: Yes, it’s like, wow! She spoke truth, but she did it actually in love. 

Erin: I think we can see extreme—the peacemaker who’s the enabler, who just rolls over, takes it. That’s the peacemaker that’s not helpful, she’s just passive. Or we see the truth-speaker who is a battering ram—which is me. My sister calls me “Rammy,” and she’s not wrong. The truth speaker who’s the battering ram. We see in her that yes, she’s a truth-speaker and she’s a peacemaker. She’s not passive. She does it so graciously. 

Joy: She’s a respecter of persons.

Erin: She is! 

Joy: She’s a respecter of David, and equally a respecter of her husband. I mean, she’s calling him out, but she could go a lot farther than that! 

Erin: She could. Well, she could have let him get what he deserved.

Kesha: She could have said, “You know, you are such an evil, wicked man . . .”

Erin: “. . . this man’s coming!” 

Kesha: “I’m out here! Come on, David! When are you coming? You want me to open the door to help the chariot come through? Or what do you want me to do? Whatever you need me to do.”

Erin: And that comes from recognizing people as image-bearers of God. She speaks respectfully to the servant, which she didn’t have to do. She’s a wealthy woman who has power. Man, I want to be like Abigail if I ever grow up. 

A couple big take-aways for me as we’re just continuing to look at this interaction, one is that God is my defender. And the second is that only He can change hearts. So I want to just drill down a little bit on this idea that God is our defender. Joy, can you read us Psalm 18:1–6?

Joy: Yes. I can.

I love you, O Lord, my strength. The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised, and I am saved from my enemies.

The cords of death encompassed me; the torrents of destruction assailed me; the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me. In my distress I called upon the Lord; to my God I cried for help. From his temple he heard my voice, and my cry to him reached his ears.

Kesha: I love that.

Erin: And what words are used there to describe the Lord? He’s our defender. Right? He’s our fortress. It’s this idea that He is our protection. He is the one that fights for us. He is the one that cares for us. We hear something similar in Psalm 121:1-8. 

Kesha: So I’ll read that one. 

I will lift up my eyes to the mountains; from where shall my help come? My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to slip; He who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, He who keeps Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. The Lord is your keeper; the Lord is your shade on your right hand. The sun will not smite you by day, nor the moon by night.

The Lord will protect you from all evil; He will keep your soul. The Lord will guard your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever. (NASB)

Erin: I love that! He’s our keeper; He’s our protector! Now, who wrote these psalms? 

Joy: David.

Erin: David! We don’t know when he wrote them. We don’t know where on the timeline this happened, but this is the David who in this moment is experiencing a “wait a minute, I’m not my own defender.” And he’s writing, “The Lord is my fortress; the Lord is my shield; the Lord is my keeper.” This is what bubbles out of his heart because he’s lived it. 

And Kesha, we’ve been talking throughout this series, and you are a sexual abuse survivor. You were abused as a little girl. I want to know for the survivor of sexual abuse specifically, what what does the truth that God is your defender, what does that mean to them? To you?

Kesha: I can rest assured that if I do not see justice on this side, I will ultimately see justice eternally. Ultimately, justice is not going to heal us. It’s not going to set us truly free. What will set us truly free is knowing that God ultimately will serve justice. God is your defender; God is your refuge; God is your help, I think it’s such a comfort!

It’s a great comfort, because it helps build trust in God. This is what it’s all about, right? Even the story we’re reading in Abigail. It’s ultimately for us to trust who God is in whatever situation we find ourselves in. Whether it’s dealing with a difficult person or dealing with a perpetrator or an abuser, it’s the same principle, right? Trusting God that He will deliver.

Erin: Joy, I know that part of your story is that you spent years trying to change your husband’s heart. I would just love for you to give us a peek into that. What was going on in his heart that you thought needed change so desperately? And then, how did that work for you, trying to change his heart?

Joy: It didn’t work so well. I had a husband who was an alcoholic—a very angry alcoholic. So it’s an obvious sin, right? It greatly affects, like Abigail. His anger affected every aspect of our lives. So it’s easy to see that needs to be dealt with. But how I dealt with it, rather than trusting God and just laying at the feet of the Lord and trusting Him, I spent years just striving to change him. 

I think sometimes we think that there’s going to be this exterior thing that changes them: if they just hear that song, or that sermon, or if they could just read that book, or see this, or be affected, or see their kids cry, or something. Then it’s going to wash over them, and they’re going to fall at my feet and cry and weep and wail and ask for my forgiveness. But God is the one who changed his heart. 

I could not change him, and I learned after years of trying and lots of frustration. I just caused more turmoil in our marriage by doing so. But once God got a hold of my heart, my self-righteous heart, and I stopped, then I was free to live. I didn’t have that burden of, “It’s my responsibility to change him.” I couldn’t change him, that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. 

Erin: And you wrote about this part of your story in your book, Waiting for His Heart. Can you just tell us why you wrote that book? What hope you were hoping to give to women? What did the Lord eventually do? 

Joy: Well, my hope was just telling women they’re not alone. I get it. I understand. God understands. But also, just in a practical way, to flesh out who I was. It walks through the journey of my husband’s addictions and what that did to our family. But greater than that is what God was doing in my heart. He was trying to turn me, like Abigail, to practice those things that she had practiced: to lean upon Him, to trust Him to be the rock, to trust Him to change my husband. 

So a great deal of that book is about my dealings with that difficult situation. And praise God, he did surrender. There was redemption and restoration in our marriage—which is a very big deal. Forgiveness was extended across the table for both of us, and for him and his children. 

God does a complete work. When He does a work, He does it completely. He heals completely. Which is a good promise that we need to remember in these times that are dark and we don’t know how is this going to work out? We fear, and we get paralyzed, or we act out. That’s why I say it’s always good to just pause for a second and see who God is, and who am I in Him? I love that swaddling, that bundling up in His love. There is nothing He doesn’t see. Whether we are being abused, or whatever. He sees, He hears, He knows, and His heart is for us—so for us!

Erin: Kesha, about being sexually abused as a child, and the abuse started when you were how old?

Kesha: Nine years old.

Erin: Nine years old. And it went until you were?

Kesha: Fifteen years old.

Erin: Fifteen years old. And Joy, you were in a marriage where you were emotionally abused. So in both cases there is a nuclear bomb of sin in your lives. And let’s not pretend it’s not delicate, let’s not pretend it’s not messy, let’s not pretend it’s not rooted in deep human brokenness. But we also want to be really clear in what we are saying and what we aren’t saying. And they’re different, as we’ve been discussing this. To nine-year-old Kesha, if somebody said, “You’re being abused. You’ve got to get yourself out of that situation,” could nine-year-old Kesha get herself out of the situation?

Kesha: No.

Erin: No.

Kesha: No. Because nine-year-old Kesha would not have seen it as abuse. 

Erin: Sure.

Kesha: It’s so complicated. Because your abuser, for the most part, is someone you love, someone you have a relationship with. They’re family members, they’re acquaintances, they’re close, they’re not strangers. So there’s a weird dynamic in that relationship. It would have taken a lot of convincing for me to realize that I was being abused. So the frame of mind of “getting out” . . . it’s not there. 

Erin: Yep. And nine-year-old you also didn’t pursue justice through the justice system. You were thrown into that.

Kesha: I was thrown into that at the age of sixteen. 

Erin: But you shared with me that a lot of women start to deal with their sexual abuse well into adulthood. They’ve managed it. Trauma has changed their brains. And so, for some of those women pursuing justice through the justice system like you did is not an option. The Statute of Limitations is up. The abuser is no longer living. So what we aren’t saying is, “never contact the authorities.” If you can contact the authorities, we think that is an appropriate route. We aren’t saying, “Leave all the justice to the Lord and never involve the justice system.” 

Kesha: Because you can actually get justice for other people, other victims. That’s really the main goal, as far as if I were to seek justice. It would be to prevent this person from abusing other children, sexually abusing other children. To stop the perpetrator from continuing on. That’s what it would be.

Erin: And we’ve seen that happen in some of the very high profile sexual abuse cases. One person blew the whistle, and all of a sudden the curtain was pulled back and we see that there’s been systemic abuse. In which case, pursuing human justice was absolutely the right course of action.

Kesha: And the godly thing to do.

Erin: We are just saying that for some victims of sexual abuse, that’s not the only path to healing. And whether you go through the courts or don’t, the Lord is your defender. Is that what you would say to a sexual abuse victim?

Kesha: Absolutely, because I can go through the court system, the perpetrator can be convicted, and I still not feel justice was done. It still wouldn’t be enough for some. Because it’s more than them just going behind bars. That’s not really where the freedom comes. It comes from you being healed and whole in the Lord. That’s where the freedom comes.

Erin: Or to the woman who does go through the justice system and the justice system fails her. It’s not that she can’t have justice; it’s not that she can’t be defended. Because ultimately the Lord is her defender.

And a different kind of abuse, although equally rooted in sin, is the emotional abuse you endured in your marriage. Tthere’s different rules of engagement there. 

Joy: There really is. And I would say, if they are physically abused in any way, you go to the authorities—you get help, you do something.

Kesha: Please do.

Joy: Because as an adult, you do have that option.

Erin: You get safe. 

Joy: Right. Exactly. And I understand that’s a whole other complex thing. There’s so much fallout with that, and I understand that. But there are options. There are resources out there available. I think no matter what the abuse looks like, to recognize that God has the authority. He has a stamp of love written, His name. Your name is written on His heart. 

Wise counsel is so important—which is why these discussions are so important. Because to have the freedom to talk about it, as a victim, or whatever has happened, that you’re not going to get judged. You’re not going to be shut down. You’re going to be heard. You have a voice. And praise God that now, more than ever, there is a voice. They are speaking, and may the church hear these things.

Kesha: Amen. I mean you read it in Psalms, that He hears our voice. That’s what we want. That’s comforting to us that God hears us. 

Joy: Yes. 

Erin: I would never try to wrap these messy circumstances up in a bow in a podcast episode. That would be so foolish of me. I’m not the woman who is enduring emotional abuse at the hand of a husband. I’m not the woman who endured sexual abuse as a child. I’m not her family; I’m not her local church, I’m not her pastor. But no matter what the circumstances, no matter how messy, no matter what else happens, the bedrock truth she can stand on is: God is my defender.

Kesha: Most will never tell a sexual abuse survivor or victim that their suffering is to produce some type of sanctification in their lives, but I’m going to say that. Because that is exactly what God used and is still using right now to sanctify me and to conform me more into the image of His Son. It wasn’t just about my abuser and his evil—because it was evil, and it was wicked. But my response to that evil and to the wicked was also sinful. It was ugly. 

God showed me my own heart during the sanctification process: of how much I did not respond in a godly way to what happened to me in my suffering.

Erin: You’re not saying that God caused the abuse to change you, but that God has used the abuse you.

Kesha: He has used the abuse to change me and to draw me to Himself. This is what He used, actually, for my salvation first, then my sanctification.

Erin: And as your defender, He deals with your abuser’s sin. But you’re saying in this situation He’s also used it to deal with you own sin?

Kesha: My own sin. Absolutely. 

Joy: Amen. And equally so with mine, although it’s so very different. It’s still sin. When we uncover it all there is a dark evil that the enemy is the root of and the father of the lies. But my own heart needed examined. What I do with those years, those dark sorrow-filled years, looks like a redemption for me as well, and a deepening of my faith. 

And what was done to you, and what was done to me, and what’s done to every single person breathing upon this earth is redeemed at the shadow of the cross. We are under the shadow of the cross, everything that’s done to us is redeemed. 

We can put different pegs, or put sins in different holes or different categories, but it’s all evil. It is all against a holy and righteous God. But Jesus, on the cross, redeemed that. It is done. It is finished. So we can rest in that swaddling we talk about. God loved us so much that He gave His Son . . .

Kesha: . . . while we were sinners . . .

Joy: . . . and sinned against. Because ultimately it’s sin against a holy God. So all of what’s been done to us, and what we have done to others, has been redeemed on the cross.

Kesha: Yes. Amen.