Episode 2: Christ and the Church

Dannah Gresh: Our churches are facing an epidemic. Some estimates say seven out of ten men in the church are struggling with sexual addiction. 

And when women discover that their husbands abuse pornography, of course, it’s devastating. In fact, many women in this situation experience symptoms of post-traumatic stress. 

These women need help. First, to just process and function. Ultimately, the goal is for them to heal and grow and thrive in the middle of this tragedy. 

When I went through this pain, one of the women who helped me the most was Tippy Duncan.

Tippy Duncan: Let’s just go out on the porch. 

Yes, I remember that very currently, when she and Bob came into my office. They’re not the same people. God has transformed them. What I did with Bob, often, we didn’t stay in my office. We walked the loop and talked. We’d come back and sit on the porch, and I’d pray for him. 

Erin Davis: This is The Deep Well; I’m Erin Davis. This season is called “Tippy’s Teaching Me.” Dannah Gresh and I wanted to interview our mentor, Tippy Duncan, and we wanted to pass her insights on to you.

Dannah is about to lead us through a discussion. She’ll share four ways Tippy taught her to pray as a wife, but if you’re in any type of relationship that could use some hope, keep listening. You’re about to get biblical wise advice about how to prepare your own heart, before bringing up difficult topics with someone else. 

And let me mention, you can also see this conversation on video. A whole video crew recorded this season of The Deep Well with us. I hope you’ll watch and share the video by visiting ReviveOurHearts.com/TheDeepWell. 

Here’s Dannah to begin the conversation. 

Dannah: You taught me, Tippy, that marriage is sacred. Even as Bob and I have been vulnerable about how difficult our marriage has been, we’re finding how many in the Church are looking at me as a woman who stayed through some hard things. 

Saying, “That’s not healthy, you should have said, ‘See ya.’”

Erin: Dannah, I said that to you. I don’t know if you remember this, but it’s one of the regrets of my life, and I don’t have very many regrets. But in a season where Bob had made some bad mistakes, I looked at you and I said, “Are you going to stay?” 

Dannah: I don’t remember that. 

Erin: I was thinking, She’s probably not going to stay this time. And of course, you were going to stay. It exposed in my own heart that I could even, as someone who loves my husband, as someone who sees marriage as a God-given gift, sometimes I can be flippant about it. I’m so glad you stayed.

Dannah: One of the things deep in our beliefs system is that marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church. 

Erin: Well, that’s not just the Gresh belief. That’s Ephesians 5.

Dannah: That’s Ephesians 5:31–32, right?

Tippy Duncan: Let’s get that clear now. 

Erin: Right.

Dannah: That’s right. Those verses say: 

"For this reason, a man will leave his father and his mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” it is almost like the apostle Paul has ADD, because he says, “I’m really talking about Christ and the Church.” And if you’re not familiar with the whole context of Scripture, you’re not going to understand. He’s just making clear from what’s clear in Genesis creation, that God created marriage to be a picture of His love. 

Tippy: Right.

Dannah: I would have never divorced Bob; he would have never divorced me. But I think I would have felt foolish for being a woman who loved a man through his redemption story if you had been breathing encouragement and truth into my life. So, thank you. You took that stigma away. 

Tippy: Good. 

Dannah: But we met you in those early years when it was really tough.

Tippy: Yeah. 

Dannah: We were fighting about things like: he puts his socks in the middle of the living room. 

Tippy: And you don’t make mashed potatoes every day. 

Dannah: You remember that one?

Erin: Was that a real one?

Tippy: Yes, it was.

Dannah: Mashed potatoes every day—the man wanted mashed potatoes.

Erin: I like mashed potatoes, but I’m going to have to side with you on that one, Dannah. 

Dannah: Bob’s family bought fifty-pound bags of potatoes and made mashed potatoes every night. It was a real problem in our counseling sessions. 

Tippy: It was. He was very upset about it.

Dannah: But you helped us talk through that. 

Tippy: Yeah. 

Dannah: You helped work through that. Those hard conversations were a training ground for much more potentially devastating conversations that we would face in the future. 

But there’s one thing that Tippy taught me to do, that I would not be sitting here a married woman if I hadn't done it, I think. You taught me to pray for my husband. 

This is a journal from the year my marriage hit ground zero. I don’t know how many times it starts with this, this word right here. Do you see those two words?

Tippy: Yes. 

Dannah: What’s it say?

Tippy: Tippy Duncan. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

Tippy: That’s me! 

Dannah: That’s you. 

I would record what you would tell me on the phone to do. Almost every time it was either to get into Scripture or pray. 

I found four prayers in the pages of this book that I think every woman needs for her marriage. 

So, the first one is the prayer of humility. You taught me this when I called you and said, “Something’s off. He’s not present. He’s not making eye contact.” 

Do you remember the first thing you asked me when I described to you the mental state, the emotional state that my husband was in at that time?

Tippy: I asked you if he’d relapsed. 

Dannah: Yeah. If he’d begun using pornography again. 

Tippy: Yeah. 

Dannah: The next thing you said was not, “Go ask him.” The next thing you said was, “Pray.”

I see women all the time who are counseled, their husband is a workaholic, and they’re told, “You need to confront them.” But you quoted Proverbs 3:5–6. 

Tippy: I will trust You with all of my heart, and I won’t lean on my own understanding. In all my ways I will acknowledge You, and You will make my paths straight. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

Tippy: And this will be healing for my body and bones. 

Dannah: Yes. Yes. That’s the TSV, the Tippy Standard Version, I think.

Erin: I love that version. 

Dannah: Yeah. And what you told me was, “Dannah, I advise you not to lean on your own understanding right now. Because, we don’t know, but Jesus does. So, I want to assign you to pray, “Lord, I’m trusting You. I am not going to lean on my own understanding.”

Tippy: Right. 

Dannah: “I’m going to acknowledge You in this time, in this space, in this way.” 

So, for eighteen months, you and I prayed that Scripture over my marriage. We didn’t confront Bob. You said, “If you just go in there and blast at him accusations and assumptions, you’re not going to open his heart, you’re going to crush it. And you don’t know, Jesus does.” 

And you said, “Until you’re in a place of humility, where you really are leaning not on your own understanding, but really trusting the Lord, you’re not ready to have the conversation with him.”

Erin: Do you remember that you and I were meeting weekly to pray on the phone during all of that?

Dannah: Yeah. 

Erin: I took the opposite approach, being the bulldog that I am. 

Dannah kept saying, “Something is up.”

And I would say, “Just ask him.” Ask him! Because week after week after week, she was like something is off. So, I’m so grateful . . . That’s just another example of you championing marriage in a uniquely Word-centered and Spirit-driven way, which is the posture of humility. 

Dannah: So, I think it needs to be said that sometimes a woman doesn’t confront her husband or have a very much-needed conversation out of fear. There are times when it’s appropriate to confront our husband. 

Erin: Right.

Dannah: I’m not an advocate of never bringing something to light of concern to your husband. I have brought many things to Bob.

Erin: Well, fear is the blinking light on the dashboard of your life. 

Dannah: Right.

Erin: When your hope is not in Christ . . . Scripture promises that He will keep us in perfect peace when our mind is fixed on Him.

That means what it says. So when I’m not in perfect peace, I know my mind is not fixed on Him. 

Dannah: And God doesn’t give us fear.

Erin: Fear doesn’t come from God. 

Dannah: Right.

Tippy: No. 

Erin: So, probably bottom line those are less indicators about your relationship with your husband and more about your trust in the Lord in that moment in your relationship. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

Tippy: I agree with that. 

Dannah: So fast forward, Bob does come to me and confess that his pornography problem had resurfaced and escalated, and it was crushing. You were one of the first people I called, and I was numb. 

Tippy: I’m sure. 

Dannah: In one of our conversations in the aftermath, you assigned me the task of learning the prayer of tears. 

You said, “Dannah, you’re not crying; there’s no grief.” 

And I was like, “I know, I think I’m strong.”

(Tippy laughs)

And I think you laughed like that then. 

Erin: Why does that make you laugh?

Tippy: Because crying is strength. It’s vulnerability, okay? We have it mixed. We think if you don’t care, you don’t cry, then you’re strong. No, it’s when you’re weak. When you’re weak you don’t do those things. 

Erin: I’ve never heard anybody say that. 

Tippy: Really? It’s really true.

Erin: I believe you. 

Dannah: So, you assigned me the task of studying the entire book of Lamentations. My brain was ravaged on the devastation of everything going on around in my marriage. You were like “There’s this book in the Bible; it’s really fun to read.”

Erin: It’s not an easy book.

Dannah: Not an easy book. 

Tippy: No, it isn’t. 

Dannah: Why did you assign that? 

Tippy: Because you needed to lament, and you weren’t.

Dannah: What is lament?

Tippy: Sorrow. Deep, deep sorrow. 

Erin: Wouldn’t you say that true lament, God’s intent for lament, is when we express our sadness toward Him?

Tippy: Right. 

Dannah: I wrote that Jerusalem has just been destroyed by Babylon, and the purpose of this book is to express despair and teach God’s people that disobedience to the Lord brings immense suffering and distress. 

And when I think of crying and grief, I always thought of death, loss—you lost your job, prodigal child. But what I learned in these pages is that believers grieve over sin. They lament over sin. 

And you told me, just sit in that while you are there. And I remember specifically, I was upstairs . . . I don’t know why, but I was over the nightstand, and I was praying for Bob. He was away getting some counseling. I cried tears that I had never known before. They weren’t feeling sorry for myself tears; they were true tears for him. I just sat there on the edge of my bed, and I cried, and I realized this is intercession. 

Tippy: It is. 

Erin: I think we need to lament over our own sin that we bring into the relationship. 

Tippy: Right, absolutely. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

So, the prayer of tears, it's a different kind of intercession without words. 

And then you taught me the prayer of joy. And you said, “Dannah, now that you have lamented, now that you have learned to cry tears of intercession, it’s time to learn the prayer of joy.”

And you turned me to the book of James. You probably know what verse it is, but James 1, what is it, starting in verse 2?

Tippy:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Dannah: Why did you want me to learn to pray that way? To count it with joy, all the things that were happening in that hard year?

Tippy: One of the things Paul says in Thessalonians the trials and tribulations are preparing us for heaven. 

Erin: What do you think that means?

Tippy: I think it means that it's maturing us, and that we are learning more about God’s love and grace and mercy. And then we’re stronger. I’ve learned to appreciate the trials, because they change me in the way that the Lord wanted to change me. 

Dannah: This is the one that all of the women want to start with. But Tippy did not let me start there. 

Erin: You’re saying they don’t want to start with humility?

Dannah: They don’t.

Erin: Lament?

Dannah: No. 

Erin: They want to get to number 4, what is it?

Dannah: They don’t even want to consider that this could all be working out for their good. So, you said to me “Dannah, I see that you’re walking in better humility. I see that you’re learning to intercede with tears. I see that you’re starting to count the reasons that God is allowing this to happen in your life as joy.”

And you said to me, it was on September 30, I can’t say the year, because Bob and I have decided not to disclose that. 

Erin: I like it. 

Tippy: It’s your business. 

Erin: It’s good to have a boundary. 

Dannah: It’s not everyone else’s business. I wrote this down because I was like, oof…this is what I’ve been wanting to pray all along. You said, “This is what I want you to pray this week, ‘Lord, Jesus, knock Bob down with your love, like You did Paul on the road.’”

Tippy: Yes! I love that prayer. 

Dannah: Why did you counsel that? 

Tippy: The Holy Spirit gave it to me. So, I’ve prayed for a lot of people over the years, “Overwhelm him with Your love and grace, and tender mercies, and draw him near. Deep, deep, deep into Your presence.”

That’s powerful prayer. 

Erin: You know what that is? Not that there are bad prayers, but a prayer I hear many people pray is, “Lord, be with them.” Well, He is. 

Tippy: Yeah. 

Erin: He’s everyone. And if we are His children, He has promised “I never leave and I never forsake you.”

And so, we’re praying for these believers, these saints, “Lord, be with them, be with them, be there with them.” And He’s right there with them, as close as their shadows. And so, you’re saying because we know You’re with them, overwhelm them with Your love.”

Tippy: Overwhelm them, knock them down. Yeah. 

Dannah: You called it a prayer of invitation. You said now that we’ve, because those first three prayers were really for my heart. You said “Now that you’re in a more stable place, we’re going to invite God to work in Bob’s life.”

I honestly wanted him to experience God’s love. 

Tippy: Sure, you did. 

Dannah: And I wouldn’t have started that way. 

Tippy: No, you wouldn’t, because you were too upset. You were too angry and hurt. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

Tippy: Hurt and then angry. 

We as a people tend, all the time, to hide hurt with anger. But the root of anger is hurt, and devastation. And so when people say “Well, I’m angry.” I’ll say go deeper. 

And I teach them that you’re not at the real place yet, you know? Because you’re not saying that you’re hurt. You’re pretending, you’re saying you’re angry. 

Erin: Yeah.

Tippy: You know? And of course, they’re angry. But the deepest part is that we’re hurt, we’re brokenhearted, we’re devastated.

Erin: I’ve had some access to this story that you’ve been telling. And Tippy, you’ve closer access. I think I know the answer to this, but I’d love to hear you say it, did God knock Bob over with His love? 

Dannah: Oh yeah. 

I’d like you to hear from his heart.

Bob Gresh: I’ve put Dannah through hell. I use that phrase, because I know no other word to describe the depth of pain that I’ve brought into our marriage. My struggles with lust, pornography, depression, anxiety, and all of the relational disasters produced by it. 

I brought her to places where she had no good choices, and it is the great sadness in my life. 

In our marriage, loving well means willing to scalpel and open a wound, when the disease of sin and selfishness and pride lurks beneath. And loving well also means waiting patiently for the right time to start that cut. And working through all that together, God has brought a peace to our marriage, through a lot of hard work, on both of our parts. 

And our marriage has peace now, that passes all understanding. 

Erin: That’s my longtime friend, Bob Gresh, speaking at a Revive Our Hearts conference a few years ago. And you know what? I can testify that what Bob said is true. It’s obvious that Bob and Dannah have a lot of joy in their marriage today, and a lot of joy in the Lord. 

Keep listening to hear about a sweet way God has redeemed the sin in Bob’s life. 

You know, I just had a conversation with a friend of mine at church, and if she had watched that clip, I know what she’d say. She’d say, “That’s not the way my story is turning out. My husband isn’t showing any signs of changing.” 

And I’ll tell you what I told her, “You don’t know how things are going to turn out. You don’t know what God is ultimately going to do in your marriage. But you can trust Him.”

No matter what your husband does or says or whether he changes or not, you can turn to Jesus for strength. You can ask Him to help you be patient. You can ask Him to show you His love. He will not fail you. 

And even if your husband never changes, God can give you what you need to be faithful, and to keep praying for your man. 

As you put into practice the advice you’ve heard today, I want to encourage you to do so in community. Just like Dannah got specific advice from Tippy, I hope you’ll reach out to a woman in your church, who can walk through tough situations right along beside you. 

We’re not saying it’s wrong to remove yourself from an abusive situation. You can follow these principles from Tippy from a place of safety.

You can watch this entire conversation again by visiting ReviveOurHearts.com/TheDeepWell. 

You know every season of The Deep Well is important to me, because they all drive you to God’s Word, but this season is extra special. You’ll get to meet and see the faces of some of the most important people in my life. 

You’ll see Tippy and Dannah, but as you hear the series you’ll hear how their lives have been so formative to me , but you’ll also come inside my actual kitchen. You’ll see the faces of my four sons, and get some shots from the farm that I love to talk about so much. And I would love to bring the entire audience of The Deep Well to my farm for a hayride, but since that can’t happen, this is next best thing. 

So, it feels like I am bringing you into a really special sacred part of my life and I am so excited for you to get to see the many gifts God has given me, and the people He’s surrounded me with.

To watch the videos visit ReviveOurHearts.com/TheDeepWell. 

While you’re at ReviveOurHearts.com, be sure to check out Susan Hunt’s book, Spiritual Mothering. There’s a link to it in the transcript of this episode. 

Do you know that God might have you be a “Tippy” to someone else? In the book, SpiritualMothering, Susan Hunt will go more in depth about what it means to mentor and be mentored. Again you can find that at ReviveOurHearts.com/TheDeepWell. 

Tippy has stuck with my family and supported us, week by week through one of the most difficult seasons I’ve ever faced. Find out more in the next episode of this season “Tippy’s Teaching Me.” 

To close our time, Dannah is remembering a conversation she had with a group of twenty-something women. 

Dannah: One of them said, “The only person I’ve ever known who reminds me of Abraham is Bob Gresh.” 

Tippy: Woah. 

Erin: Redemption.

Tippy: Redemption. 

Dannah: Full redemption. And the rest of them were like yeah, that man walks by faith. So, yes, God knocked him over like He did Paul, but He threw a little Abraham in there too. 

Erin: Yeah. I love that. 

Tippy: That’s fabulous.

Erin: What a beautiful prayer. If you’re listening to this, you should pray for your husband, let’s just settle that. If you’re not praying for your husband, then step into that. 

Tippy: You need to get on it. 

Erin: Let’s not start with, “He’s got this . . . I want you to fix . . . and he’s got this I want you to fix.”

Tippy: No. 

Erin: Tippy has given us another path, but that simple prayer of knock Him over by Your love is so beautiful.

Tippy, I’m going to ask you to pray for Christian marriages, but before I do, I don’t talk about Satan much, because I don’t want to give him much glory. But one thing that I know is true is that he opposes Christian marriage. 

Dannah: Yes. 

Erin: Because Christian marriage is to be a portrait of Christ and the Church. So, I’m twenty-two years in, and I’ve learned not to be surprised by it. It doesn’t make me feel like a victim anymore, “Satan is always attacking my marriage.” It makes me mad. It makes me want to fight. And so, every Christian marriage needs prayer. And not just for the sake of the husband and the wife in the marriage, but for the sake of our witness in the world, and the children that our marriages represent, and the grandchildren, and the churches. 

Dannah: For many years I believed the lie that we weren’t a picture of Christ and the Church in that period. But I now believe we totally were. 

Tippy: Yes, you were. 

Erin: I agree. 

Dannah: Because Jesus died for our brokenness, and in marriage, in Christian marriage, we both get to play the Jesus part of laying our life down. 

Erin: Because you’re both the “us” part of being broken sinners. 

Dannah: Yeah. 

Erin: There’s the need. 

Dannah: And when your marriage is broken, it is a testimony to the lost world that we are a picture of Christ and the Church. And when there’s sin and brokenness and pain, we stay, and we lay our lives down, the way that Jesus did. 

The Deep Well is part of the Revive Our Hearts podcast family, calling freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ. 

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