Erin Davis: Welcome back to the Women of the Bible Podcast. I’m Erin Davis, I hope you’ve been following along with us as we’ve been walking through the study Abigail: Living with the Difficult People in Your Life. Abigail’s story is found in a single chapter of the Bible. She’s a hidden gem that maybe you’ve known before, maybe you haven’t. But we love her. We all want to be “Abigails” at the end of this Study.
I’m gathered with some friends of mine. You’ve gotten to know them already through this podcast, but I’ll let them reintroduce themselves. I want you to tell us: what does it look like for you to open God’s Word with women in your own life?
Kesha Griffin: Well, my name is Kesha Griffin. I actually love, love, love, getting together with the ladies …
Erin Davis: Welcome back to the Women of the Bible Podcast. I’m Erin Davis, I hope you’ve been following along with us as we’ve been walking through the study Abigail: Living with the Difficult People in Your Life. Abigail’s story is found in a single chapter of the Bible. She’s a hidden gem that maybe you’ve known before, maybe you haven’t. But we love her. We all want to be “Abigails” at the end of this Study.
I’m gathered with some friends of mine. You’ve gotten to know them already through this podcast, but I’ll let them reintroduce themselves. I want you to tell us: what does it look like for you to open God’s Word with women in your own life?
Kesha Griffin: Well, my name is Kesha Griffin. I actually love, love, love, getting together with the ladies of my church. We normally get together once a month for our women’s fellowship. What we do is, I usually come with a lesson and then we have very open discussion. I present the information, present the topics, and the ladies just chime in. It’s just so good to hear everyone’s perspective. We’re learning from each other. We’re hearing how it applies in our lives from a different perspective. So that’s how I love to get together with the ladies at church.
Erin: Getting women to talk—never a challenge. But using the Bible, and using that as our guide, and opening the conversation. I love that. Meg, let’s introduce yourself to the . . .
Meg Honnold: Spoiler! I’m Meg.
Erin: Yeah, I said “Meg,” and what does it look like for you to open God’s Word with other women?
Meg: Yeah, well typically, I love a good coffee shop conversation. But this year it’s actually looked a little different for me. I’ve really loved those tools, so this is hopefully a good resource. I’ve been using the Bible Recap. It’s actually a podcast that was created this year (2019). It’s a chronological Bible reading. Each day there’s posted a new episode. It’s fifteen minutes long, and it’s a recap of what you’ve read that day in Scripture. I’ve loved this because at the beginning of the year I was able to gang up with a bunch of women. “Hey, are you going to do the podcast? Let’s do the podcast together.”
It’s been really helpful for accountability for me to do the consistent daily reading, because I know that those ladies are going to be checking up on me. “Did you hear today’s episode?” And I can listen to the recap on my way to work after I’ve read the Scripture that morning.
So that’s been a really helpful tool for me this year.
Erin: I love that. I have a group of friends that are all in the same season of life. I believe the season of life is officially called “crazy.” We have small children at home. We have children in school, so we’re doing a lot of running. As often as possible we get together in person, but to mitigate just sort of the season of life that we’re in, we text each other every morning. “What did you read in Scripture?”
And there’s not a lot of in-depth analysis there, unless, sometimes it’s like, “Wow! Look at this thing that I saw!” or “I feel convicted by this,” or “Pray about me for this.” But there’s just that daily drip of accountability in our lives, that you know somebody is going to ask, “Did you read your Bible today?”
It’s a real motivator, because I think all of us have the temptation to (or at least I do) prioritize the to-do list and “I will get to reading my Bible at some point.” And “some point” never comes. And so, the Women of the Bible podcast is women sitting around, talking about the Word of God. We’re not theologians; we’re not experts in the Scripture. We just love Jesus; we love His Word; we love the Church, and we love women.
We don't want it to be a substitute for studying the Bible with women in your church. But, we’ve heard some great stories, like: a mother and daughter who lived in different states. And they walked through the study together, listened to the podcast episodes. It’s like what you were saying, Meg, then debriefed. Or we’ve heard of groups that are listening to the podcast. That’s their assignment for the week. They listen to the podcast episode, and then they come together.
So we love that. We hope that you are opening the Bible with other women. We are going to open the Bible together today and continue to look at Abigail’s story. We have made it all the way to session number five. Unbelievable, right?
Let’s just do a quick recap. The players in this chapter of Scripture are: David. Meg, remind us where David is in his lifespan when we meet him here?
Meg: We find David in this place of grief. Samuel has just died. Samuel’s been a mentor, a leader, a guide for David, a covering, really, as Saul’s out to get him. Samuel dies; David is grieving. He makes this simple request to come over and to share in what Nabal has. This wealthy man and he’s met with this rude . . . he just cuts him off. Insults him, belittles him, and David’s response is, “Strap on your swords.”
Erin: That’s right. He says, “Every man to your sword.”
Meg: “Strap on your swords.” Which is really what I do when somebody’s rude to me. “Ladies, strap on your swords!”
Kesha: Why do I see that about you, though?
Meg: Ha ha.
Erin: A little scrappy? A little scrappy? Yeah! And so David and 400 men are on their way to have a “strong conversation . . .”
Meg: That’s a nice way to put it.
Erin: . . . with Nabal because he’s rude and disrespectful. He’s insensitive. And the human heroine of our story is Abigail. And what does Abigail do? Kesha, remind us?
Kesha: Once she hears of David’s plan, she decides to prepare a feast for David and all of his men. She approaches David and pleads with David. She reminds him of who he is and who God has called him to be. And, basically, “Will you please have mercy? Don’t do this. You don’t want guilt on your hands. You are a man of God. You are about to be king.”
So she comes to him humbly, yet not passively. She’s just like, “Don’t do this please. There’s another way. Let God handle my foolish, wicked husband Nabal.”
Erin: And David responds! I mean, He turns. He realizes because of that reminder—you are the Lord’s anointed. You know, Abigail says lower-case “lord” many times referring to David, which is just a statement of honor and humility. But she says capital-L “Lord” many many times. “You are the Lord’s.” “This is the Lord’s battle.” And he turns. We see Scripture describes her as discerning and beautiful. We see that discernment. We can’t see a picture of her, but we know that she has inner beauty.
And we don’t ever see in the text Abigail praying for Nabal.
Kesha: I noticed that too!
Erin: So we’ll have to go a little bit off-script here. But what we’re going to talk about in this episode is: how can we pray for the difficult people in our lives? Because we all have Nabals. There is that woman listening who, it’s her husband. And much like Nabal, he’s harsh. He’s rude. One of the servants described Nabal as: “You can’t say a thing to that man. He won’t listen. He’s bristly.”
And so, for some women listening, it’s her husband. It might be the boss; it might be a friend; it might be a sister-in-law; it might be a neighbor. We all have a Nabal. We’ll talk a little bit later about how we might be the Nabal to somebody else.
Kesha: That’s not in this session.
Erin: Oh, you don’t want to get to that? Maybe we won’t make it that far. But how can we pray for the difficult people in our lives? Kesha, could you read us Matthew 5:44?
Kesha: Sure.
“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (10:11).
Erin: Oooo. That’s a tough one!
Kesha: Pray for those who persecute you. Love them?
Erin: And who’s talking in that passage?
Kesha: This is Jesus.
Erin: This is direct from the mouth of the Savior. And He is giving us advice. In the first episode we talked about hermeneutics, which is how we interpret Scripture. That’s the fancy word for that. And one of the laws of hermeneutics is that we interpret it literally unless we have a reason to interpret it figuratively.
So if Jesus says “love your neighbors,” or if Jesus says “love your enemies,” He means love your enemies. And when Jesus says “pray for those who persecute you.” it means pray for those that persecute you. I mean, you don’t have to get out your Old Testament, your Old and New Testament guides. You don’t have to study Greek and Hebrew . . . “Well, in the original language . . .”
Meg: Yeah, like, I don’t think that’s what He meant.
Erin: Pray for those who persecute you means . . .
Kesha: Well, who are these?
Erin: Yeah, who are my enemies? Who is my neighbor? That old question.
Meg: That’s not if I feel like it.
Erin: Sure.
Meg: Or maybe once or twice.
Erin: Sure.
Meg: Love them. Pray for them.
Erin: Love them. Pray for them. Love them. Pray for them. It really is a biblical mandate that separates us from the world. Because in contrast, think about our very noisy, very rowdy culture. I’m thinking even now this week as we’re recording this podcast there have been some laws handed down and people are up in arms. And what I don’t see is: Love your enemy on this issue and pray for them. What do we see instead in the broader culture when people disagree? Instead of prayer and love?
Kesha: Well, you have to pay them back. You have to take vengeance in your own hands. You don’t have to forgive. You can cut them off. You never have to speak to them again. And what I’ve actually through this study realized, I realized how much we contribute.
Erin: Yes.
Kesha: We’re so quick to call everyone our enemies. Just because we have a disagreement doesn’t mean we’re enemies, right? I even got convicted a little bit because I’m not dealing with Nabals. I’m not dealing with Nabals, so why am I treating this person as a Nabal?
Meg: Why am I strapping on my sword?
Kesha: Why am I reacting this way? This person is not a Nabal. They’re not foolish; they’re not an unbeliever. This is a godly person.
Erin: They’re a sinner.
Meg: . . . and broken
Kesha: They’re a sinner and broken, so where is my compassion for them? Versus treating them like an actual enemy. I think we do that far too much.
Erin: I think we do that in our homes. I think we can think, That man is my enemy. That child is my enemy.
Meg: We’re queens of escalation. We can go from here to here.
Erin: Yeah. Instead of thinking, They’re broken. I’m broken.
Kesha: Yeah, it’s true.
Erin: I love that.
Meg: I tell you, I see a lot of Facebook posts. I see a lot of social media anger. You know, we have this platform, we have this voice. Doggone, we’re going to use it!
Kesha: Do you think we’ll do that in person?
Meg: Oh no. I think we say much more on social media than we would say in person.
Kesha: I think so too.
Meg: It’s easier when there’s a screen between you.
Erin: That happened just this week. Meg and I attend the same church. A member got angry at another member of our church and posted it on Facebook, including names.
Kesha: Oh my goodness!
Erin: It came to my attention and my stomach hurt!
Kesha: Yeah!
Erin: Because this is not who we are. It’s that reminder of Abigail. Our pastor very swiftly intervened and called the post-er and said, “We are a family. This is not how we act within the family.”
I’m so proud of our pastor. It was like, pray for that person! Maybe that wasn’t true persecution. It wasn’t true persecution; it was annoyance. But if that post-er had stopped to pray, there would have been a different outcome instead of this very ugly, public showing in the body of Christ.
Kesha: And that brought dishonor not only to herself, but to your church, and then ultimately to Christ. Because people are watching.
Erin: She repented, but it was out there, and it was embarrassing.
Kesha: It’s hard to take that back once it’s out there.
Erin: Absolutely.
Meg: Well, we see that David in a previous chapter where it talks about self-control and David’s need for self-control and his reaction. We see him call out his hundreds of men, “strap on your swords,” and what happens? He goes and Abigail calls him out and says, “Hey, this is not what we’re gonna do. This is not for your handling; this is God’s situation.” And in front of all those men, he has to humble himself and say, “You’re right.”
Erin: We know that David was a man of prayer, I mean, he wrote the bulk of the psalms. I mean, he speaks the language of prayer so fluently. But did he pause? Did he decide to walk the way of truth and pray for either the Lord to work in his own heart or in Nabal’s heart? Based on actions, I wonder.
Kesha: Yeah it seems, because you read previously, what was going on with him with Saul. He probably felt, “Look, I’ve already done it with Saul. I’m not doing it with you. Like, I’ve been very gracious with Saul. I could have taken his head off, but I decided not to. But with you, Nabal, I’m at my wit’s end.”
Meg: “I’ve had it!”
Kesha: “I’ve had it!” It’s like that with us sometimes. We feel we gave grace to this person, “Okay, I gave you grace,” but that was the last straw. I’m going there this time.
Erin: Good point. Good point. Joy mentioned in a previous episode that sometimes we try to shift to the external factor, like “Oh, read this book. Listen to this sermon.”
Meg: “Let me subtly slide that your way.”
Erin: “Would you have lunch with this person that I know?”
Kesha: “Did you hear the sermon on Sunday?”
Erin: I think the question I would ask to those who are walking through the study or listening to this podcast and there is a Nabal in their mind is, Have you prayed for the Nabal? Have you prayed for that difficult person in your life? Are you listening to this podcast, walking through this Bible study, hoping that we’re gonna give you a little tool? A little tool in your toolbelt to go fix Nabal? Right. Instead, have you prayed?
So what do we pray? When somebody is difficult in our lives, how do we pray?
I’m going to give you some kinda categories of prayer. This is not an exhaustive list. Prayer is a Spirit-filled activity, so it’s not a check-list. But these are some parameters, some biblical ways to think about it.
We can pray for judgment.
There’s Psalms called the Imprecatory Psalms. The Imprecatory Psalms are those that call for God to pour out His judgment on the psalmist’s enemies. Now, David wrote most of the psalms. If I ever have a question whether David wrote it or not, I can usually tell if it’s an imprecatory psalms because David will be going along, like, “Praising the Lord, the Lord is good . . . and slaughter my enemies, Lord!”
Meg: “And slay them!”
Erin: “Slay them!” And that’s so David.
Kesha: “May the wicked perish from the earth!”
Erin: “May the wicked perish!” That’s David. So there’s a complete list of the imprecatory Psalms in the Bible study, but I would love, Meg, if you could read us Psalm 10:1–12. This is an imprecatory psalm, written by David. And again, it’s not a script, but I think it gives us an idea of how we can ask the Lord to judge those who are difficult in our lives.
Meg: And sometimes it’s helpful to just pray the psalms as well. I love that you’re pointing us to that, because it can be really hard to pray those prayers for your Nabals. I love praying the Scripture in those situations.
Why, Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble? In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak, who are caught in the schemes he devises. He boasts about the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord. In his pride the wicked man does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God. His ways are always prosperous; your laws are rejected by him; he sneers at all his enemies. He says to himself, “Nothing will ever shake me.” He swears, 'No one will ever do me harm.'
His mouth is full of lies and threats; trouble and evil are under his tongue. He lies in wait near the villages; from ambush he murders the innocent. His eyes watch in secret for his victims; like a lion in cover he lies in wait. He lies in wait to catch the helpless; he catches the helpless and drags them off in his net. His victims are crushed, they collapse; they fall under his strength. He says to himself, 'God will never notice; he covers his face and never sees.' Arise, Lord! Lift up your hand, O God. Do not forget the helpless (NIV).
Erin: There’s some venting happening there. I’ve gotta think that this is based on a person. That’s not just some fictitious . . .
Meg: That’s too specific.
Erin: It’s very specific. Was it Saul? Was is Nabal? Was it some other enemy of David? We don’t know. But he’s listing the reasons why this man is an enemy of mine, or why I’m offended. And then, “Lord, take care of him! Expose it.” And so there are these prayers where David is saying, “Move God! Avenge me! Avenge your name. Judge this person.”
I’m wondering if you can think of any circumstances, practically (we aren’t kings who have enemies coming against our nation), but practical situations where those kinds of “avenge, judge, move,” prayers are appropriate in our lives.
Meg: We were just talking about this a little bit yesterday actually. Kesha and I were talking about just heavy, heavy stuff. We were talking about child abusers and pedophiles, and stuff that you can’t even, don’t want to, begin to wrap your mind around because our brains just aren’t meant to handle it. Just evil and dark.
In those situations we were talking about how the church can give grace in the wrong scenarios, and give grace to the wrong people. How we can sometimes err on the end of just accepting and loving and there are times and there are situations when we should be praying for judgment.
Erin: And justice. Yes.
Kesha: Exactly. We did speak pretty detailed about that. We were talking about my own sexual abuse past. Although at the time I didn’t pray for justice because I was so young.
Erin: You weren’t yet walking with the Lord, right?
Kesha: I wasn’t walking with the Lord. It happened at the age between nine and fifteen, those years. I wasn’t thinking about justice. But coming out of it, and as I grow in Christ, you do want to see justice for those that are “the helpless” in that psalm—the needy the oppressed. You do want justice. And you do want the Lord to stop the wicked—to avenge.
So I understand that prayer. But at the same time I understand Matthew 24, to love you enemies. Because ultimately that’s what Christ did for us, right?
But there is a time. I think there is a time to pray righteously for judgment. Now the question is: Is my heart in the right posture to pray this prayer?
Meg: That’s good, yes.
Kesha: That’s where it gets a little fuzzy.
Erin: Asking for the Lord’s judgment is not contrary to being loving. Ultimately, the purpose of the Lord’s judgment is to bring us to repentance. And so, those verses might sound in contradiction. Are we just supposed to give warm fuzzies to terrorists and pedophiles? We’re just supposed to love them? No!
Kesha: Sadly, some think that. Which is what we were talking about. Some say of pedophiles and perpetrators, “We just need to love them more. Like, we’re not loving them enough.” So that’s what you’re alluding to. Well, there is a time for righteous anger and judgment. Right?
Erin: And there’s a parenting picture there. I mean, the purpose of our families is to reveal these mysteries of God. For me to never judge the behaviors of my children, never discipline the behaviors of my children, is not love.
Kesha: I mean, God disciplines those whom He loves. His children, right?
Erin: He does. And on a smaller scale than the bigger picture that we’re talking about, I pray for my children’s sin to be exposed. I have four sons, and if there is sin in their lives, I want the Lord to expose it—and they’re little.
I can think of a situation with Eli where he came home from preschool, and he was just acting funny. And my discernment flares went up. I thought, What is going on? I pressed. I said, “Buddy, is there something you need to tell Mommy?”
And he just continued to act funny. And finally I said, “Buddy, something isn’t right. I need you to tell Mommy what is going on.” He had stolen some seashells from his preschool classroom. And that came out with a lot of tears. We immediately marched right back to the preschool, had to face Miss Amanda, give the seashells up. It was all pretty benign in hindsight. But the Lord exposed sin in my boy’s life.
And so to ask the Lord to judge my boys is a loving kind of prayer. When we face difficult people, to ask the Lord to bring judgement, we can pray for their salvation, but is it possible that the Lord will use judgment to turn their hearts to Him? So, again, the goal of judgment is a turning. It’s the Lord’s kindness that brings us to repentance, but it is also sometimes His judgment.
So Meg and my pastor tells us not to pray “get ’em God” prayers. Not to just pray that they would be struck down by lightning or whatever. It’s a heart issue. The prayers are not just “get ’em God!” It’s not “avenge me” so much as it is just “expose the sin.”
Another way we can pray is for reconciliation. God is a God of radical reconciliation. And Kesha, I know that you had a pretty radical reconciliation with your own father. I’d love for you to just give it to us in a nutshell: You were estranged from your dad, and the Lord did a work of reconciliation.
Kesha: Yes, He did. The reconciliation came about once I had a forgiving heart. So once I was healed from my hurt and pain and brokenness from the abandonment of my father, of him being estranged and all of these things . . . Once I forgave, I pursued reconciliation. It was just a natural outflow of my forgiving heart. So actually, I pursued the relationship. He always wanted the relationship. It was my unforgiveness and bitterness and anger that prevented us from having a relationship. So reconciliation came from my forgiveness. I was able to pursue that relationship and try to mend that relationship back together.
Erin: I love that part of your story. You can actually watch a video about it at ReviveOurHeart.com. But God gets so much glory from that story of reconciliation. And that’s not how this story ends, but let’s choose our own adventure a little bit. You remember those choose your own adventure books?
If instead of Nabal dying, if Nabal had had a change of heart, repented, gone to David, and said, “I sinned against you and against the Lord,” and there was this brotherhood moment.
Meg: A bro hug.
Erin: I like that ending. I love that ending! And God is glorified in this story either way, but God is glorified through reconciliation. I’m thinking of a Nabal in my own life. She’s a member of my family. She doesn’t like me; she hasn’t liked me for a long time. There’s a lot of tension there; there’s been a lot of tension there for a long time. When I try to kind of vent all of that to the Lord, it always comes back to that: “Love your enemy, and pray for those who persecute you.”
So I’m always thinking, Well, have I prayed for her? and Is my heart open to reconciliation? And it’s a constant check, because I often think, No. I’d rather her heart to be a stone within her like Nabal. But I think the Lord wants me to be open to reconciliation and to pray for it.
So for the Nabals in your life, are you praying for reconciliation? Is your heart open to it? Pray for opportunities to give God glory. We’re still talking about this story many, many, many, many years after it happened. Because it’s so much bigger than one rude man. I mean, if every rude man got a passage in the Bible, it would probably be much bigger. So it’s so much bigger than one rude man.
So here’s a broad question, I’m interested in your thoughts. How can God be glorified through our interactions with difficult people?
Kesha: I think, just using my father as an example, once we reconciled we started hanging out more. For the first time, I went to a father/daughter lunch, just he and I (that’s never happened).
Meg: That’s amazing!
Kesha: He started to come to our church. Our church started to show him love. He started to feel love from God through the people of God in our church. Then ultimately, he started to see God differently. He started to see us, Christians, differently. He started to see what it’s like to actually have the love of God poured out on you. So I think God is glorified.
Not only that, but those in my church are able to witness the reconciliation. They know my story; they know where we were before; they see us now. They are able to glorify God in that and that gives them hope! If they’re dealing with a Nabal or just someone they may have broken relationship with, God can restore it and reconcile it as well. So I think it gives hope.
Erin: I think so, too. Can you think of any other ways, Meg, that difficult people give us an opportunity to give God glory?
Meg: I’m thinking back to Kesha’s comment in that we can be really quick to call them our enemies. Sometimes it’s living with broken, difficult people within our church family, within our immediate family, or whatever it might be. I think among believers we’re still very broken, sinful people.
I think of the Scripture we sharpen each other, “Like iron sharpens iron.” That picture is not that we sharpen each other like daisies and rainbows. I mean, it’s iron on iron! Sometimes there’s sparks! There’s a hot flame underneath it; there’s sparks going off. It’s not always a pretty cushy picture. But that refining process. We sharpen each other like steel on steel for that sanctification process to become more like Jesus.
Erin: Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth is always reminding us that anything that causes us to need God is a good thing. Spurgeon said it this way, “Anything is a blessing which causes us to pray.” And so if it is the difficult person in our life . . . We often refer to that passage where Paul is praying for the thorn in his flesh to be removed. There’s a reason why Scripture doesn’t tell us what that is, because the thorn can be any number of things.
Kesha: I’m so glad that Scripture does not say that.
Erin: Me too, because could have been a physical ailment, a physical handicap, but the thorn could have been a Nabal. It could have been a relational situation that Paul was saying, “Get me out of this. Get this Nabal out of my life.” He prayed and he prayed and he prayed, and the thorn remained. And ultimately Paul could go, “Thank you, Jesus, for this thing that reminds me how much I need you.”
And so we can give God glory by saying, “We need you.” I pray like that all the time. I will say, “Lord, I need you so much, and I know it now. I had a moment of self-sufficiency. I had a moment of thinking I was in control. But whatever this is, I know it now!” And ultimately, that’s grace.
So I think we can give God glory. As you think about the difficult people in your life, one way to pray is, “God, use this as an opportunity for me to give You glory.”
Meg: Yes.
Kesha: Yes. Amen.
All Scripture is taken from the ESV unless otherwise noted.
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