Joy in the Midst of Chronic Pain

Dannah Gresh: Glenna Marshall suffers from constant chronic pain. In the midst of it, she makes a conscious choice.

Glenna Marshall: I’m going to look for the ways God is loving me in this, even if it’s not in a reduction of pain. Pain changes you. It can make you really bitter, or it can be the thing that keeps you very near the Lord’s side.

Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast for July 19, 2024. I’m Dannah Gresh with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, author of Choosing Gratitude.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: Have you ever suffered with some kind of chronic pain? Maybe you’re there right now, or maybe you know someone who lives with pain—always there, always present—in his or her life.

This month we’ve been emphasizing the importance of compassion. Earlier this week we looked at Psalm 126, and we asked the Lord to revive our hearts and teach us to weep, to cry tears of compassion, for the lost.

Today we want to ask the Lord to soften our hearts and grant us His compassion for those who may be physically hurting. And even if you’re feeling fine right now, I still hope you’ll listen to this conversation with Glenna Marshall.

Glenna is a pastor’s wife, she’s a mom, an author, and a musician . . . among other things. She sat down to talk to Bob Lepine, who serves on the Board of Directors for Revive Our Hearts. Glenna suffers from constant pain, but she’s learned to see it as a blessing. Here’s Bob to start us off, talking with Glenna Marshall.

Bob Lepine: Take me back to the beginning of autoimmune disease for you.

Glenna: So when I was twenty-nine years old, I woke up with a backache, and I could not think of an injury. I was an avid runner at the time, so I thought maybe I needed new running shoes. I bought some, but that didn’t help. I tried a Pilates class, bought a new mattress . . . and with time, the back pain got worse and worse. 

I saw a lot of doctors and chiropractors, and no one could figure it out or give me any explanation for what was wrong with me. At the time, being in ministry, our church was going through some very, very difficult things. When your church and your pastor are at odds, the family of the pastor really bears a lot of pain in silence.

I dealt with the stress of our difficult ministry in a way I really had no control over. My body took the brunt of it. I began to have more strange symptoms pop up—rashes, digestive disorders, and a lot of anxiety, and something called brain fog.

I had trouble thinking clearly. I didn’t trust myself to drive very long distance. I stopped sleeping at night because of the pain. I would lie down, sleep about three hours, and almost every single night I was just wrenched awake in debilitating pain! This went on for about six years. I could not figure out what was wrong with me.

During the adoption of our second son, we entered into a very difficult adoption, it just very quickly went off the rails. We had an attorney who had been an adoption attorney for thirty years, and he’d only had one other case like ours. 

We were in court for almost a year. Every day we were faced with the possibility of having to give our son back! It was traumatic and very difficult as a mother who already loved this baby, to fight for him, to do what we thought was in his best interest. And I got sicker and sicker and sicker.

I developed an eye condition on a trip to court. The court was seven hours away; it was in another state. I had a seven-year-old and an infant at the time. I couldn’t see very well on this trip. I had a really bad headache, everything was very foggy.

When I got home I saw an eye doctor who looked at me and said, “You have a systemic disease, and you need to get some genetic testing done.” I did not know what he was talking about. He called me after my appointment and said, “I think you have a disease called ankylosing spondylitis. I want you to Google it.” So I did, and I wept!

I was thirty-six, and I had been living with every symptom for about seven years at that point. And just like that, I had a diagnosis. I had genetic testing done and found a path to some healing, went into remission for about four years, went out of remission for a year, went back into remission for a year. 

I have spent the better part of the last two years in excruciating pain! I have only recently gone into remission again. It has tested my faith like almost nothing else! When you’re lying awake in the middle of the night . . . well, not lying, because you can’t lay down. You’re pacing the floors; you are alternating heat and ice, and you know that it is a disease that has no cure.

You know that untreated if it continues to rage, it will fuse your spine together with time into a permanent forward curve, and eventually your spine will break. And when you feel the pain night after night, you think of all the “what ifs” that could happen.

I had a good long bout of about six months where the pain was worse than I’ve ever experienced in my twelve years of having this disease. I would sit on my couch with heat and ice and watch the sun rise in the mornings. It was just me and the Lord, and me asking all my questions about, “How can You love me and let me live with this!?”

And every morning I would open my Bible and pore over the psalms and 1 Peter and Colossians, and ask my questions, and I would watch the sun come up. Every morning He gave me just what I needed to get through the night, to get through the day—just that day, just that night.

I knew that it was possible to get into remission at some point with different kinds of treatments, but you always know that with any amount of stress, you’re going to be triggered right back into a flare-up. 

I knew that any type of healing I might receive could really only be temporary, probably. During that time, a close friend of mine went to be with the Lord after a long battle with cancer, and I have never pondered the resurrection like I did then. 

Dealing with chronic pain and having a friend who is with the Lord . . . the idea of a new body that never gets sick and that never hurts is indescribable! For the first time in my life, I think I really grappled with my mortality and that is a good thing! I have begun to long for heaven like never before

I think when you’re really young you think you’re invincible. You don’t want to miss out on any of life’s experiences. But when you bring pain into the equation, pain changes you. It can make you really bitter, or it can be the thing that keeps you very near the Lord’s side and reminds you that this is not all there is. Heaven rules over chronic pain and disease and my disease will not have the final say over my eternity!

In some ways, while I hate having the chronic pain disease—and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone—-I’m so thankful that the Lord has deemed it necessary for me to have to call out to Him on a daily basis. 

I don’t know if I knew I was needy before having a disease that causes pain. But when you need grace just to get through the day—or the night especially—you realize just how needy you are and how weak and that you need the Lord to sustain you. You need His Word to feed your soul.

You need prayer—you need to breathe in prayer, breathe out prayer. It’s good to be needy. It’s good to need Him. It’s good to realize. I mean, you always need Him. On your best days you need Him, on your worst days you need Him.

I don’t want to relive the worst days, but there is an intimacy with Christ that you experience when you realize just how desperate you are for the Giver and Sustainer of Life, just to sustain you through the night! That’s not a bad thing.

Nancy: Wow! We’re listening to Glenna Marshall, talking to Bob Lepine. This conversation was recorded at a True Woman conference when Joni Eareckson Tada spoke of the extreme pain she experienced one night, and how she was desperately trying to get the attention of her caregiver.

Joni Eareckson Tada: That’s when, in the dark, I drew a deep breath and I screamed, “Help! Help me!” And the house was silent. Suddenly Psalm 18, verse 6 popped to mind: “In my distress I called [out to] the Lord; I cried to my God . . .for help” (NIV)

Well, being one who takes the Bible literally, God was telling me here to cry out to Him! And so, lying in bed on my side and facing the wall, I cried out every Bible promise I could think of. I screamed them, hoping that my helper would hear me!

“Lord! You are . . . my ever-present help in this trouble!” (Psalm 46:1 NIV). I strengthened myself in the Lord, knowing that if He chose not to wake up my helper (because we have a Sovereign God, don’t we?), then He would give me enough grace to get me through until morning!

Nancy: That’s what Bob Lepine referred to the next day as he spoke with Glenna Marshall.

Bob: We got back to the room last night, and I said to my wife . . . (You know, we come to events like this often in the mix of the program, and so we’re worried about details and stuff.) I said, “Were you ministered to tonight by any of what happened?”

And she said to me, “Honestly, I’m still mad at God that Joni wakes up in the middle of the night and is crying out and nobody’s hearing her. And I’m thinking, How do I defend God as being a God of love, when He could have prevented that. He could have kept that from happening?” You’ve felt that, right?

Glenna: Absolutely! When Joni talks about crying out those verses, the biblical promises . . . especially when she talked about testing them, I really get that! You can say you believe a lot of things about God’s goodness, but when you see that He is still good to you in your suffering, you just know it in your bones!

One of the ways that I really challenged myself last year when I was really struggling with pain, was, “I’m going to look for ways God is loving me in this, even if it’s not in a reduction of pain. Because I know that He’s good. My theology and my belief about Scripture tells me that He is good, but I’m having a little trouble seeing it! So, I need to look for it.”

I asked Him to show me, and He did, in a myriad of ways! One of which was through the grace and kindness of my church. I had not spoken about my pain publicly. A friend from church rebuked me for that, very gently, very lovingly. So, I asked for prayer during our corporate prayer time on a Sunday morning, and I just blubbered through the entire thing!

They immediately gathered around me and laid hands on me and prayed for me. I had calls and texts: “Can we bring you dinner?” “Can I take your kids for an afternoon?” “Is there anything I can do to help alleviate pain?” “Can I give you time to take a nap?” “Can I clean your house for you?”

And having tangible love from God’s people like that, it was God loving me in my weakness and in my pain. Every morning I would get up, like I said, and watch the sun come up, because I’d been up much of the night. I’d look through the Scriptures for, “What does God say about who He is and how He loves His people?” 

And one of the ways He really loves His people is by being with them, being present. I might have been alone in my house, awake while my family slept, but the Lord was never asleep! He was always with me.

And passages about suffering took on such deep meaning, and tasted sweet, much sweeter than they had before! And so those promises of Scripture about the Lord’s love for you—His everlasting love, His kindness, His care. I mean, they’re truth. They’re all true. I find them to be tested the most in suffering. You come out on the other side, and it’s all true!

Bob: How do you guard your heart from the envy that comes when you look at people living pain-free, care-free, happy lives. People complaining about some triviality while you’re dealing with chronic pain and suffering? 

Glenna: Mmm, sometimes I do get a little jealous. If someone complains, “Oh, my back really hurts!” What I want to say is, “Do you have a disease fusing your spine together? Because I do! You want to talk about back pain?” In my flesh I really want to say that.

But my mom has always said to me since I was a little girl, “If we all piled up our sufferings on a table together, and we looked around at what each person carried, there’s a good chance we’d pick up our own sufferings and leave the room with them.” 

I just think that everyone is suffering in some way—or they will at some point—and in God’s sovereignty and in His kindness and in His specific love for me, He has deemed that this kind of trial is best for my sanctification.

So, while I do feel jealous of people who can run (I can’t run anymore), who sleep all night . . . I mean, the idea of sleeping all night every night just, I can’t even fathom that, I’m so jealous! But I know that He has taught me to pray in the night. He has increased my faith through prayer in the middle of the night. 

I just have to trust Him with that! If I as a believer in Jesus have trusted Him, I have staked my entire eternity on what He has deemed is good and right and true. So, if I can trust Him with my eternity, I can surely trust Him with today!

So I have to trust that He is right, and you know sometimes I turn over at night and I see my husband sleeping so peacefully, and I get so jealous! But my husband has his own sufferings that the Lord is using to sanctify Him.

But the Lord knows us the best. He created us. He knows what we need, what will keep us by His side, so that’s what I comfort myself with.

Bob: Are you able to experience joy in the midst of suffering? 

Glenna: Mmm, I was just talking with a friend about this last night who’s grappling with a very serious diagnosis. A lot of times the joy is after the fact. It’s after a long night of pain. In the middle of the night I feel a little desperate and my prayers are more like Psalm 13: “How long, O LORD? Will You forget me forever?”

But in the morning my prayers are more like, “Great is your faithfulness (Lam. 3:23) because You kept me through the night!” And so, I really want that joy in the midst of trials that James talks about, like, “Count it all joy when you experience trials of various kinds” (James 1:2) I want the joy in real time.

I do think that’s possible. I do think I’ve experienced it at times. I’m still, I think, in the part of sanctification where I see the joy more clearly in the morning. I know the Lord is with me in the dark, but joy comes in the morning, and that’s when I see it most clearly.

Bob: For those of us who have friends who are experiencing chronic pain, tell us what not to do.

Glenna: Number one, don’t offer all of your medical advice! When someone has a diagnosis, or they have been dealing with pain, they’ve tried everything! I always try to remember that people mean well, they really, really do, so I try to extend some grace there. But don’t try to offer a medical solution.

Don’t use Scripture necessarily to try to make them happy about their situation. Because the Bible gives us room to lament our sorrows, but sometimes we don’t! We don’t give people room to lament a diagnosis that’s life-changing.

We want them to “buck up,” and, “Remember! All things work together for the good of those who love God!” That verse is true, Romans 8:28, “For all things work together for the sake of those who love God and are called according to His purpose.” 

He works things together for good, He absolutely does! That is a true verse. But I think as believers, we’re quick to offer that as a Band-aid, and what we need to do is enter into the suffering of those who are suffering. 

Hold their hands and pray that the Lord will work this for good in their life and that they would see Him do it, and that they would be encouraged when He does. You can offer Scripture like a balm or like a hammer. When you are seeking to encourage someone who is suffering, be a balm. Offer to help. “Can I bring you a meal?” “Can I relieve some pressure, so that you can rest?”

One of the ladies in my church last fall gripped my shoulders after that church service where I asked for prayer and she said, “I can’t believe you didn’t tell me you were dealing with this! I’m coming to your house, and I’m going to clean it!”

I just loved her for that, because she had a very practical solution. She can’t make my pain go away, but she can offer very tangible love of Christ like that.

Bob: Is there any hope for anything other than long stretches of remission for you?

Glenna: Umm . . .no. I will not die from my disease, but I will die with it, and my hope is that I can have more pain-free days than pain-filled days. I’ve had so many with pain that you get used to what you get used to. I mean, your threshold for pain increases, so you can live with it.

I’m thankful to say that right now I’m in just very mild pain these days, and I’m very thankful to report that. I know that can change at any time. I try not to think too much about what I will feel like ten years from now or twenty years from now or thirty years from now, if the Lord gives me that many years. And I don’t have to, because I don’t need that day’s grace. I need today’s grace.

And so my hope is not necessarily in being healed this side of heaven. I know that’s unlikely because of the nature of my disease. But my hope is, number one, in a resurrection. I think it’s Don Carson that said, “I’m not suffering from anything that a good resurrection can’t fix!” I love that—because that’s true, my real life will start with a new body, with Jesus. I look forward to that!

Number two, I firmly believe He will carry me until then! I know He will. 

Bob: Does your disease indicate a shorter life than you might otherwise have?

Glenna: Not necessarily. It can, if you are completely untreated and not taking care of your body. It doesn’t necessarily shorten your life, but it does drastically reduce the quality of your life as you age. So, I have to be really vigilant about the way that I eat and take care of my body, and sleep when I can.

Managing stress is one of the more difficult things. Autoimmune diseases are strange in that they are often triggered by stress, but then they also cause stress. So you get stuck in a cycle that you can’t get out of.

I don’t know of any other kind of disease that responds to stress—maybe heart disease—but it’s strange what your body can do to manage stress, and you cannot always remove the stress outside of your body. You have stressful circumstances . . .that’s just life! Everyone has stress.

And so, the challenge is, what do I do with that? Do I worry, worry, worry, or do I pray, pray, pray? Do I come to the Lord? Do I make sure that there are believers speaking truth into my life, who are encouraging me in the Scriptures, who are praying for me? All of those things are helpful. 

Medical help is helpful. Christian counseling is helpful. All of the things that we thankfully have access to, that I have access to, I take advantage of. 

Bob: If I knew that I had something that stress would make worse, I would be stressed out about stress! Right?!

Glenna: That’s very true!

Bob: I would be the guy: “I’ve gotta make sure I’m not stressed out!”--that would stress me out! Has this impacted how you relate to your kids?

Glenna: My kids know that I have a disease, and they know that there are days where Mom lays on the couch, and she needs a little extra help. They’re very cautious around me then, they’re also very concerned, which I appreciate. I love to see my kids when they have compassion.

I feel like I can be honest with them, even at the ages they are at, that I’m having a hard day pain wise and, “I need you to give Mom a break.” This is maybe too much to put on kids. My husband is a Type 1 diabetic. They are used to having parents who have needs.

My prayer is that it will help them to grow into compassionate young men, for whatever God has prepared for them, that it will give them compassionate hearts for others. They both have significant health issues themselves, so we spend a lot of time in doctor’s offices, and we trust the Lord with our bodies.

It has been helpful for my husband and me to be able to say to our children, “I’m sorry that you have this issue, I’m sorry that you have this struggle, that you need this surgery. Your dad and I get it, and we are trusting Jesus with our bodies.” That’s all we can do, is point them to Christ.

Bob: I can think of ways in which this could create strain in your marriage.

Glenna: Yes, it could. I think if my husband were sitting here, he would say he is not by nature a mercy person. He is merciful in his ways, but he would say that is not his gift. The last two years of our marriage, with my health just tanking in the way that it did, really grew him in that area, and he was my lifeline!

He prayed for me in the middle of the night. He took me to expensive doctor’s appointments, different kinds of appointments. Anything we could find that might help, he was onboard. I know a lot of men that would not take leaps like that. 

We have had a lot of different kinds of suffering in our life—ministry, decades of infertility, going through our sons’ adoptions. And for the Lord’s kindness, whatever reason, the outside stress has unified us in marriage.

And so we just took our health crises as one more thing that the Lord was going to use to teach us to love one another and to lay our lives down for each other.

Bob: The question I’m about to ask you, I know what the “right Sunday school answer” is, and you do, too. If I could go back ten years and say there’s this path that I could put you on that is pain-free, it will limit what you know about God, what you’ve learned about God through the pain path that you’ve been on, but it’s pain-free. You could have that or you could have the pain path and there will be some sweet rich stuff you will learn about God in the process. Which path do you pick?

Glenna: It’s a hard question, because nobody wants pain. I don’t want pain. I want to sleep all night! That’s what I want, that’s all I really want! But the reason it’s such a hard question is because I would not know Christ the way I do now, without pain. I would not cling to His promises like I have to. I have to take the pain path.

I don’t want the pain, but I want the growth, and I want the intimacy with Christ! Because if you take the pain-free path, but there’s no intimacy with Jesus, then there’s no point! Because if it’s Him or nothing, it has to be Him!

The deepest seasons of growth in my life, of being so sure of who the Lord is, are in the valley . . . always. And so, while the Sunday school answer is to take the pain path, it is the path I would take again.

I don’t say that lightly, because sitting where I am today, I’m not in the pain that I was in even a year ago. And yet, who Christ is to me today, it’s worth any painful path you have to take!

Nancy: Glenna Marshall’s attitude reminds me of a chorus I remember singing years ago. Maybe you’ve sung it, too. Remember this? 

It will be worth it all when we see Jesus; 
Life’s trials will seem so small when we see Christ.
One glimpse of His dear face all sorrow will erase. 
So bravely run the race ’til we see Christ!
(“It Will Be Worth It All” by Esther Kerr Rustho)

Or as the apostle Paul put it in 2 Corinthians chapter 4, verses 16–18 “Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. For our momentary light affliction is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. So we do not focus on what is seen, but on what is unseen” (CSB). Amen!

Well, I hope Glenna’s words have been an encouragement and an inspiration to you, especially if you’re experiencing chronic pain. And for all of us, my prayer is that we will grow in compassion for those who are suffering! 

Dannah: Thanks, Nancy, and I should mention that we have a link to Glenna Marshall’s website and books in the transcript of this program at ReviveOurHearts.com. Again, look for the link in the transcript.

You know, compassion for the suffering is something God requires . . . no, He commands it! But God’s commands are always based on His character, and when He asks us to show mercy or kindness to someone who is hurting, He’s asking us to join Him in what He already does.

Erin Davis took a look at how we can see God’s compassion in the Bible in a booklet she wrote called Uncommon Compassion. The subtitle is Revealing the Heart of God. This month it’s our thank-you gift to you for your donation of any size. 

Just ask about Uncommon Compassion when you contact us with your gift. Head to ReviveOurHearts.com and click where you see “donate” to do that, or call us at 1-800-569-5959. 

There are many people in the world who need the hope they find when they’re shown the compassion of Christ, and one group that fits that category are the children and young people who are trafficked for the selfish gratification of others.

Al and Susan Henson have dedicated their lives to offering what they call “compassionate hope” to thousands in southeast Asia. We’ll hear from them on Monday. Have a great weekend and give someone the gift of compassion some time soon. Thanks for listening, and be back for Revive Our Hearts.

This program is a listener supported production of Revive Our Hearts in Niles, Michigan, calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ! 

All Scripture is taken from the ESV unless otherwise noted.

*Offers available only during the broadcast of the podcast season.