Full of Grace and Truth, with Mary Kassian

Dannah Gresh: Parents of prodigals often need to guard their speech when they’re interacting with their wayward children. Here’s Mary Kassian.

Mary Kassian: You bite your tongue regularly—except when you’re on your knees in prayer, and that’s where you don’t bite your tongue. You pour out your heart, and you plead to the God of heaven to send His messengers into your child’s life.

Dannah: Welcome to the Revive Our Hearts podcast for June 1, 2023. I’m Dannah Gresh. Our host is the author of Lies Women Believe and the Truth That Sets Them Free, Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: It’s really interesting to watch how people engage with those they disagree with—whether it’s a person or on social media.

For example, someone could be pouring out their heart on some subject, and then someone else steps in to point out a grammatical error.

Or maybe you hear another person saying something that is doctrinal inaccurate, and your impulse is to correct their wrong thinking right there on the spot.

On the other hand, maybe you avoid social media debates altogether because it’s just too contentious.

Well, we’re not going to talk about social media today—not directly. But we are going to consider the important topic of how we as followers of Jesus treat others, how we respond to them.

Not long ago, Bob Lepine sat down with Mary Kassian to talk about this very thing. Both of them have been longtime friends of mine, and they’ve helped Revive Our Hearts in so many ways. Bob has served on our advisory board since 2001. And Mary has spoken at every True Woman event since 2008.

So, let’s listen to this conversation and, as we do, let’s ask the Spirit to search our hearts and show us any areas where we need His help to do a little course correction. Here’s Bob Lepine talking with Mary Kassian.

Bob Lepine: One of the things that I’ve been thinking about a lot over the last couple of years is the statement in John 1:14 where John says, “We beheld Jesus, His glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father . . .” And then it says, “. . . full of grace and truth” (NKJV).

And I thought, “Jesus was full of grace, and He was full of truth.”

Most of us tend to lean in one direction or the other. Rather than being full of both, we tend to be either full of truth and light on grace, or full of grace and light on truth.

In today’s world, how do we be fully committed to truth and demonstrate grace in our relationships with one another?

Mary: I think one of the biggest challenges in our world is to have that balance living in a world where there’s so much confusion and so much pressure to accept everything. I think Christ walked that path for us. He showed us what it means to be full of grace and to be full of truth. 

So, it’s the two together, not one or the other. Not grace, “I accept everything.” And by accept, in our culture, often acceptance means endorsement. I think that there’s a fine distinction there.

 

I think that Christ modeled that one can be accepting of people who were living sinful lifestyles, but not endorse that lifestyle. So, I think that’s important for us to understand, that being full of grace and being full of acceptance does not equate endorsement.

But also, the truth part of it. Truth is what gives us life. Truth is what gives us identity. Truth is what connects us to our Creator. Our Creator is full of grace and truth. And if we miss out on the truth aspect of it, then we’re missing the mark in terms of who God created us to be.

So it’s very difficult to keep those two in balance. I think that people tend to go either one direction or the other direction. They lean towards grace, which they view as endorsement or “everything’s okay.” Or they lean towards truth, which means that they go, “You know what? This is the line. You’re not following it.” And they become people who are very harsh and judgmental.

I think holding those two things together is highly important . . . and particularly as our culture moves more and more away from a Judeo-Christian framework.

Bob: So on a practical level, if you’ve got a friend who is trapped in some kind of sinful behavior, maybe they don’t know Christ, and you’re thinking, Should I say something about their drunkenness? Should I say something about their immorality, or do I just hold my tongue and try to be nice to them and wait and see if it ever comes up?

How do we discern what the Lord wants us to do in those situations?

Mary: It’s sometimes really tough for us to know. How do we react? How do we interact with this person? Do we say anything? Do we remain quiet? Do we just kind of hold our peace? Do we lovingly kind of confront them and say, “You know what? I just don’t think this is the best lifestyle for you.”

It’s hard to know, but I think of the words of Christ when He said, “In that moment, the Holy Spirit will guide you as to what to say.” I think that as we walk with God and walk with the Holy Spirit, if our hearts are right, if our hearts are full of the heart of Christ, then He will guide us through His Holy Spirit in that moment whether to say something or to remain silent.

I think both responses are called for at various times. I think that there’s no cookie cutter formula. “Oh, I must tell this person,” or “I must confront them,” or “I must lay everything out for them,” or “I must remain silent.”

I think that both responses are called for, and I think the Holy Spirit will guide us at the time, at the moment, when we’re in the moment, what to say.

Bob: Can we be bold and kind simultaneously? Can we be prophetic and still demonstrate love and grace at the same time?

Mary: It’s entirely possible for us to be bold and kind at the same time and to demonstrate that grace and demonstrate that kindness and yet boldly stand for truth. I think that’s possible. Again, Christ modeled that. 

We see that modeled throughout the New Testament in terms of the apostles and in terms of the early Church that there was a kindness and there was a loving bent towards mankind and toward others. And yet, at the same time, there was boldness in terms of saying, “This is what Jesus said. This is what He stood for. This is the story of the gospel.”

And if we love people, how can we deny them that? How can we deny them truth? How can we deny that which will bring them wholeness and life and that which has been so profoundly impactful in our own lives?

Bob: That’s speaking the truth in love. That’s what Ephesians calls us to.

I had somebody point out to me one time that Jesus, before He overturned the money changers’ tables, He wept over Jerusalem. And they said, “Before you become prophetic, ask yourself the question: have you wept over what you’re seeing rather than just coming in angry and censorious.”

Mary: I think the weeping actually goes hand in hand with being prophetic. All the prophets wept. Look back to Daniel and to Isaiah and Jeremiah. What they were hearing from the Lord made them weep for the people. And to have a heart that’s torn apart with compassion and with longing for people to repent and to see the truth for Christ.

I think in order to speak into our culture, to speak to our friends, our loved ones, and even people we don’t know, I think that it is necessary to have a heart that is broken and tender toward the Lord, and most importantly, because we see that we ourselves are in the same position, that we are also so in need of God’s mercy and redemption and God’s kindness. If we don’t have that, we would be lost. I think we need to see our own brokenness and have a tear in our eye for the condition of humanity, including ourselves, as broken people.

Bob: Have you figured out a way for yourself to discern whether your heart is full of judgmentalism and self-righteousness or whether you do have compassion for who you’re speaking, so you know where you are as you’re engaging with somebody?

Mary: I think that when we come into relationships with the attitude, “I’m going to fix you,” or “I have the power to fix you,” or “I have the answers,” then I think we’re not coming at them in the right way.

I think the way that the Lord would have us approach the relationship is that, “I don’t have answers either, but I know Someone who does.” And, in the sense of dependency and reliance, that, “It’s not me. What I’m telling you here is what Jesus said, and it’s where I find life because I need it, too.”

I think that’s important. I think it’s also important to pray about that and to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Like, “Am I coming in as holier than thou?” I mean, we all struggle with that. The heart is desperately deceitful above all things.

So asking the Lord, “Would You shine a light on my heart? Would You show me if there’s any holier-than-thou attitude or pride or a sense that I’m right and that person is wrong?” Just coming with a deep dependency on my part and a humility on my part, that I don’t have the answers either. I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong, and I am dependent on God’s Word to instruct and guide me in that.

Bob: The place where this is sometimes hardest to execute is with moms and their adult children.

Mary: Yes. It’s hard as a parent of an adult child, because your role changes. You have been your entire life the one who guides them and instructs them and corrects them. But as the child becomes an adult, your adult child is in a different role. You are in a different role with your adult child. It changes.

I think that’s a difficult change because as parents, we have a tendency to swoop in and to correct our child. They didn’t say, “Please and thank you.” Let’s correct them.

And that kind of behavior can continue into adulthood and become very off-putting to the child who is now an adult.The relationship demands a change in nature and texture so that, in a sense, unless you’re asked for guidance, that you don’t come in preaching at the child or lecturing or trying to correct or trying to control the child’s behavior.

Because that’s appropriate when you are the parent of a young child, you control that child’s behavior. You teach that child in the grocery store, “That is not appropriate to have a hissy fit and to demand the chocolate on the shelf.” You teach that child not to be selfish. You demand a certain standard.

But then, as the child moves into adulthood, all of a sudden that responsibility shifts. I think that the reason a lot of parents have difficulty with grown children who are not walking with the Lord, and who are not following the ways that they have been raised in, is two things:

I think one part is on the parent’s part, where the parent still has an internal desire to control the child’s behavior instead of giving that freedom.

And I think also, on the child's part, because the child has been accustomed to having the parent try to control them, and the child still perceives that whenever the parent says something, that that’s what the parent is trying to do.

So, I think it’s on both sides. It’s not one side or the other. But I think that it’s sometimes helpful to have a discussion with your child and to say, “I know that I have, as your parent when you were young, I tried to shape and control your behavior because that was my responsibility. But now I want you to know that I’ve fulfilled my responsibility, and you have the freedom to choose. I hope you will choose what I taught you, but even if you don’t, I still love you. I pray for you. I support you. I’m still your mom, and I will still be there.”

Bob: Does that mean that you bite your tongue regularly with your adult kids?

Mary: Yes, you bite your tongue regularly–except when you’re on your knees in prayer, and that’s where you don’t bite your tongue. You pour out your heart, and you plead to the God of heaven to send His messengers into your child’s life in a way that makes sense to them, in a way that calls them, in a way that’s compelling, in a way that stirs up all of the truth that you’ve tucked in there over the years.

I think the Lord honors those prayers. I think the Lord does a great work in our children’s lives, even when we’re unaware of what He’s doing. So, we can pray. We can pray for friends. We can pray for people to come into their lives. We can pray for messages in books to come into their lives.

But I think that when a child is a prodigal child, there’s a time as a parent to just remain silent and not to try to correct that but to just love on that child and to pray that our great heavenly Father will bring His correction into their lives.

Bob: Living as we are in an increasingly post-Christian culture, there are a lot of Christians who are looking at how we interact with culture. Saying, “Be kind and nice,” is a losing strategy. It’s just not going to work.

So the question is, do we stick with that, whether it’s a losing strategy, because the Lord’s called us to that? Or do we say, “We’ve got to rise up”?

Mary: I think that’s a very nuanced question because I think that we often think that kindness omits boldness, that to be kind is to be very withdrawn and quiet and to bite our tongues and not say anything, or not to engage in what we ought to be engaging in because we live in this world. And as a part of Christians in a democracy, it’s our responsibility as citizens to also speak into the political system.

I do think it is highly important to be bold but to do so with grace and kindness. I think there is a very big difference between boldly standing for a concept or an idea or a moral choice or a principle and to boldly speak into that. I think there’s a massive difference between doing that and being unkind, slagging someone, or character assassination.

I think that what we see in our mode of political discourse these days, and we see it on Twitter and all the social media where, instead of engaging in ideas, people engage in character assassination. So, I think it is important, as Christians, to rise above that and not to get sucked into that and not to retaliate when we are called names.

I just think of Christ’s response before Pilate. Pilate said to Him, “They’re calling You names. They’re saying all kinds of things. They’re calling You out. They’re saying really ugly things about You.” And Christ didn’t respond. He just did not respond to that.

But He did respond to the truth when He was asked the question, “Are You the King of the Jews?” He just basically said, “Yes.”

He responded in truth, and He responded boldly. He did not shirk back from speaking the truth to His culture and His generation. But He did so in a way where He wasn’t concerned about defending His own personal attacks. He wasn’t concerned about defending His own person against that. He just said, “Well, I’m not going to play that game. I am not going to play that character assassination game, but here’s truth, and you need to hear what truth is.”

Bob: We read in 1 Peter 2 that in doing that, He entrusted Himself to the One who judges justly.

Mary: Exactly. I know that even in the True Woman movement, and being in a public position where I am speaking about issues that are very controversial, I have received a lot of criticisms and flack. It has been hard to just not engage in it and to say, “Lord, this is really unkind, and this is cruel what these people are saying, and it’s not even true. But I just trust You to take care of it, and I’m not going to muddy my hands and not bow. That’s not what I’m called to.”

I think that’s important. I think that is rare. I do think that is another one of those situations in which we’re trying to have grace and truth, where we speak truth boldly, and yet we need to do it graciously and kindly and respectfully and respectful of all the authority structures that God has placed into our lives.

So even when we disagree with our governing authorities, we’re not the ones calling them names and putting out the ugly memes and leading the charge when it comes to character assassination. But we are the ones to engage with the ideas, and we engage with truth, and we engage in a way that says, “This is a bad idea. I think this is a bad idea, and this is why I think it’s a bad idea,” rather than saying, “This is an ugly person.”

So, it’s a very important distinction and very important to wrestle with that and to examine our hearts and to see that we come into those situations with humility and kindness but also with boldness.

Bob: 2 Timothy 2 says, “The Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome” (v. 24 ESV)

Mary: Yes.

Bob: So how does that govern our conversation?

Mary: Quarrelsome is when we feel we need to be proved right and when we argue and argue with a person, using any technique at our disposal in order to be proved right.

I think that being kind and being bold means speaking the truth but not engaging in the mudslinging, and not engaging in the back-and-forth, “Well, you know this . . . well, this . . . well, this . . . well, that . . .”

Basically saying, “I have spoken my piece in terms of what I understand to be true from God’s Word, and your response to that is not my responsibility. I have done my part. I have been faithful before God to what I know to be true or to what I believe to be true based on His Word, and I’m just not going to get into the mudslinging.”

Nancy: So, it’s not either/or, it’s both/and. It’s not either grace or truth. We need to be like Jesus who was perfectly full of both grace and truth.

Mary Kassian and Bob Lepine have been reminding us that we need both bold truth telling as well as kind, compassionate, grace-filled communication. I appreciated what they said about how parents of prodigals need wisdom from the Lord to know how to communicate with their children.

Here at Revive Our Hearts we often hear from parents or grandparents whose hearts are breaking because of choices their children or their grandchildren have made.

One woman wrote us not long ago, and she said,

I’m a sixty-year-old woman who has endured a hard marriage of infidelity, separated four years now, as well as a prodigal adult daughter. All I know is that God is writing my story. He still provides, and because of life lessons taught on Revive Our Hearts, I’m encouraged to seek the Lord’s face all the more.

Well, my heart goes out to you, sweet friend, and my prayer is that you will keep your eyes fixed on Jesus through this time of trial. In fact, we’re going to send you a copy of a devotional book by my friend Judy Douglass. It’s called When You Love a Prodigal: Ninety Days of Grace for the Wilderness.

Judy knows firsthand what it’s like to love a prodigal child. And she wrote this devotional to help you process how God intends to use the wilderness journey in your spiritual life. You can work through it one day at a time, or you can read it straight through. But we’d love to get a copy to you, sweet Sister, to encourage you in your journey.

And for you, my listener friend, we’d like to send you a copy of Judy Douglass’ book as our thank you for your donation of any amount in support of Revive Our Hearts. Whether you have a prodigal that you’re struggling to love, or you may have a friend who is dealing with that situation, I think this would be a super-helpful resource. And remember that your giving to this ministry helps us continue to serve hurting women all over the world.

Dannah: To make a donation, just visit ReviveOurHearts.com, or you can call us at 1-800-569-5959, and make sure to request When You Love a Prodigal when you make that gift.

Well, tomorrow is the Worldwide Day of Prayer for the Prodigal. We’re going to stick with this theme and bring you the thoughts and insights of other moms and grandmothers of prodigal children.

We’ll also hear from Dennis and Barbara Rainey. Barbara will share what gave her great comfort in a time of anxiety for one of her children. I hope you won’t miss tomorrow’s episode of Revive Our Hearts.

Helping you be full of both grace and truth, this is Revive Our Hearts with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, calling you to freedom, fullness and fruitfulness in Christ.

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