Don’t Be Swayed

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: I don't think they're cheering for us. They're cheering for Jesus—Jesus in us, and Jesus in you. It's the middle of the afternoon, and get you a little bit of coffee if you start to get sleepy, which you won't. Don't, like, start snoring. Just get up and walk around and get refreshed. We're just gonna be family here. 

I’m so thankful for the opportunity to have Jackie Perry speaking tonight, and our mutual friend, Melissa Krueger, who just did a breakout. You've got their bios in the program, so I don't need to say a lot, but these are two women who know and love the Lord, and know and love His Word, and I know they love helping us know and love the Lord and His Word. That's what they're about. 

You've seen and heard them elsewhere. We've had them at a number of True Woman conferences, so grateful for that. I haven't known Melissa that long and that well, but you and Robert go back a ways. Your husband and Robert know each other. Both of these women are authors and speakers. They are moms, they're wives. So as they're preparing to do this kind of thing, they’re going through the same things you do when you're getting ready to come to a conference like this—especially Jackie with younger ones. Do you still have some at home, Melissa? 

Melissa Kruger: I am empty nesting this fall, so pray for me. It's so sad.

Nancy: Melissa's written a great book on parenting. What's it called? 

Melissa: Parenting with Hope in a Secular Age.

Nancy: Okay, if you're parenting, you're parenting in a secular age, and you need hope, so I'm going to encourage you to get that. And Jackie's books are available. Was Gay Girl, Good God your first book? I had the honor of writing an introduction, a forward to that book. I had met Jackie first before she was married, before I was married, and we've both gotten married. She's had children. I have not. But I've watched her growing in her understanding of God's Word and His ways.

Robert and I had—this is a fun little thing . . . Jackie and Preston came to our wedding rehearsal for a few 250 of our closest friends—the rehearsal dinner the night before our wedding ten years ago. She ministered through spoken word and Damaris Carbaugh, who is also here this weekend, sang that night. So I've had the joy of seeing this woman, who's a public woman, walking behind the scenes humbly seeking the Lord, seeking to stay steady.

We're learning, as there's a lot to learn in making our lives reflect Scripture, gospel truth in a wacko generation. And it's not the first time, as you're going to see in this conversation. This is what the New Testament era was like. So when we see the darkness around us, and we see the contentiousness and the divisiveness and the confusion, and the confusion about theology; it's so critical to be anchored to the Word. That's what Melissa is going to help steer with in this conversation with Jackie.

I want to just pray for them and pray that God would give us ears to hear. Lord, it's the middle of the afternoon, and some people are ready for a nap, but this is not a time to nap. These are significant days, and how we need your wisdom, your righteousness, and your power, and the hope of the gospel, to serve you faithfully and to live faithfully in this generation.

I just pray that this conversation would be edifying, that it would point us to Your Word and to Christ. Give us wisdom for navigating some of the treachery and the pitfalls of living in this present world, knowing that You've got the whole world in Your hands, and You are making everything that is wrong, right. One day we will give account to you, not for what everyone else did, but how we were faithful to be faithful. So bless these women.

I just pray there'd be something that would be said for everyone sitting in this room that would prick and penetrate or pierce a heart, that would be a takeaway that “I need to take that with me.” May that be true for each of us. I pray in Jesus' name, Amen.

Jackie Hill Perry: Thank you, friends. How are y'all doing? It's a bunch of y'all in here. It's a lot of us. I know you might be like, “Why is Jackie sitting with Melissa Krueger?” That's what I'm thinking, too.

It's because I believe that one of the most helpful ways in this time on the issue of not being swayed and guarding ourselves and guarding our hearers, I felt like me and Melissa could have a good conversation around it that would allow us to actually be more applicable, because Melissa is real good. What was our podcast called? Let's Talk. Melissa, Jasmine Holmes, and I had a podcast for three seasons on TGC called Let's Talk. Melissa and I would just talk with Jasmine. It was so good. So I was like, “Oh, why don't we just talk again about false teachers?” And, we wrote a Bible study on Ephesians too. We did. Yes, we did. 

I am so tired, Melissa, I promise I am. I got up at 6:45 this morning to pray and study for tonight. I'm just really tired. It's been a long day. The coffee is not coffee-ing. 

So, Melissa is a Bible teacher. I'm a Bible teacher. We're also just people who want to help the church grow and to guard the church from itself, and even for us to discuss the stuff that can lead us astray. You know what I'm saying?

So I'm gonna let Melissa drive this ship, and I'm just answer questions. I'm gonna ask you questions too, because you're wiser than me. 

Melissa: That's not true. 

Jackie: Okay. Do you want to start by reading the text that we're going to be looking at? 

Melissa: Yes. Let's turn to 2 Timothy chapter 4. Say, amen when you got it. About two of you, I'll wait. Starting at verse 1, it says—this is Paul talking to Timothy.

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. (vv. 1–5 ESV)

Can I say something real quickly? One thing about this text that I think is really relevant is last year, I just was taking a survey of the culture—of books, of conferences, of TikToks, of YouTubes—and I saw that this was a message that was really relevant and necessary for today, because it seems as if, particularly when it comes to technology, that the degree and the pace of deception is like picking up a bit. Because anybody can just start a TikTok and start lying. Anybody can listen to a TikTok and not do due diligence to see and check if that is scriptural or biblical. 

And so it felt like, “Man, this is something that we need to work through, not only as people who are receiving teaching, but people who are also teaching.” It is important that we tell the truth, because we want people to see Christ.

And so I think that's what this talk will be: how do we see the truth? How do we discern lies? How do we help guard people from error? And I think the whole aim is not to be critical. The whole aim is not to be loveless. The whole aim is that that is the work of the disciple. That's discipleship: to go therefore and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that I commanded. And we cannot teach accordingly if we don't know what's true. And so there you go. That's the best I got.

Well, let me start with this question though, Jackie, because it's interesting. We know that Paul is this mentor to Timothy. He calls him his son in the faith. And here at the beginning, he starts with “preach the Word.” And look, I know a lot of us love the Word. You're here. I mean, this whole conference is about being women of the Word. But can I ask what might seem like a basic question? Why do we focus so much on a book that's so old? What's unique about scripture, and why is it different than just, like, a really good self-help book? Like, isn't it time to move on?

The word Paul talks about—the word—even in the chapter before this one, which I think speaks to why. He then tells Timothy to preach that word. He says in chapter 3, verse 16: 

All scripture [that's the word] is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (vv. 16–17)

Even before that, there are points in this message where he talks about . . . Even in chapter 1, verse 5 he says: 

I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice, and now I am sure dwells in you. For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. (vv. 5–6)

And so even he comes from a legacy of faith, and a legacy of faith that was cultivated by love for Scripture. And so when we talk about this Book, this Book is not a . . . It's a living Book. It's a God-breathed Word. It's a Sword that reveals and cuts and reveals the hearts and intentions. A self-help book won't really . . . It might show me myself, but it probably is showing me more flesh than what I actually am willing to engage with.

Jackie: When you think about—I shared this in the conversation we had yesterday about teaching the Word. When you look at Isaiah 6, there is something Isaiah sees about himself, but he sees himself after he sees God first. This book shows us God. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1:1). And so that's why it's different, is because it's God's revelation. It's God communicating Himself to people. We would not know God if God did not communicate Himself to us first.

I learned that in school; shout out to RTS. I was in school, and they talked about what you call the creature–Creator distinction, which is to say that God is God and you ain't. God, as God, means He is omnipotent. He is omniscient. He is infinite. He is eternal. He is all the things. He is holy. We are limited. We are bound to time. We are finite. We are fragile.

And if God is all of these things—including transcendent and invisible—then it means that me as a finite creature cannot know anything about God if God doesn't decide to tell me. And so that's what this Book is. God is being kind and merciful to communicate Himself and reveal Himself to people who would not otherwise know Him apart from divine revelation.

That's why it's such a big deal that not only do we exalt the Word and treat it as sacred and treat it as true, because it is; but it also is important that as teachers we don't hide the Word. Because bad interpretation is me hiding people from the God the Book reveals.

And so that's why this is different. That's why this ain't no self-help Book; because this thing is divine. And Melissa, you get me gassed up. I need an organ. It's about 800,000 words. I know this because I had to record the Bible for Crossway. 

Melissa: I listen to you. 

Jackie: Do you? 

Melissa: I do. You were reading 1 Corinthians to me just last week. 

Jackie: Crossway has an audio Bible series with voices like me and one of the Gettys and Ray Ortlund. I had to sit there and read this Book for months. It opened up to me, one, how merciful God is to communicate in so many words. He gave us 800,000 words of divine revelation.

But not only that, He gave us different genres. He gave us poems. He gave us epistles. He gave us narratives. And so it's as if God is saying, “I want you to know Me so much that I'm going to over-communicate.”

So that's why I'm just astounded by people when they feel like this isn't sufficient. What else? What more can He say?

Melissa: Well, I actually think they often haven't read it. 

Jackie: Here's the thing: we tend to judge the Word because of a few verses that we've heard out there without actually delving into it. I don't know which theologian it was, but he said as he was reading the Word, he realized the Word was reading him—just what you were saying about Isaiah 6. It was starting to do something.

If you read a biography about someone else, it doesn't do that. But you start reading the Word . . . . And so what I always say, if someone hears this who's a doubter, they're not sure what they're believing about God's Word, I always say, “Just read it.”

It will start to prove what it is as you get into it, because you will find it is true. It is good. It is right. It delights the heart. But once you're in it, it starts doing all the very things it claims to be, because it's alive, just like you said.

Melissa: So okay, what I was going to ask you is this passage warns against itching ears. You have followers and leaders—they're kind of both being swayed. Why is rooting ourselves in the Word so important, both as a follower—because we're all followers at some point—and as leaders? Why does this have to be our anchor point?

Jackie: Because it's true. I think having a conviction and a theology of the Fall gives you some humility to know that if I'm not tethered to this Word, I will drift.

Because in Genesis 3, obviously we see that Adam and Eve sinned against God, and the way they sin against God is by rejecting God's Word. The devil comes and says, “Hey, you know, did God say that you can't eat from this tree?” And she’s like, “Yeah, He said, we can't eat from it, neither can we touch it.”

And he comes over—I’m paraphrasing this—she listens to the word of Satan and believes the word of Satan over the Word of God.

And so to me, that means that nine times out of ten, if at any point I'm sinning, it's because I'm rejecting the Word of God. And so if I want to stay close, if I want to stay faithful, if I want to stay on the narrow road, if I want to stay near Him, then I need to know His Word. 

I think, scheme of the devil is that for her to even say “he said we shouldn't touch it and we shouldn't eat it” means that she had some type of confusion about what God said. I think that's an access point for deception when you're not clear on what's communicated in Scripture. And so I think being clear guards you from the schemes of the devil, and it guards you from your own brokenness and your own fallenness.

I think it is ultimately so profoundly important that we know this book, so we know God, and we know that we know ourselves enough to know, “I don't always want Him, and so I need His Word to help cultivate that in me.”

Melissa: That's good. That's really good. I think there could be two ditches we can fall into when it comes to God's Word. On one side, we've got licentiousness. When I'm thinking about itching ears, we've got licentiousness, which says God's Word doesn't matter. But then we've got legalism, which says God's Word isn't enough, because we're basically saying we need to add some more words to God's Word. 

And so how do you see this in our world today, both like and in the church, even a licentiousness that says, “Oh, it's okay, God doesn't care,” and a legalism that says, “No, I'm gonna add to what Scripture says so I can prove my righteousness.”

Jackie: Yeah, it's like the difference between Jude and Galatians, in a sense. Because when Jude writes the letter to whoever he's writing it to, because we don't know, he says, “I went to write to you about our common salvation, but I found it necessary to write to you because there are those among you who are saying that God's grace is license for sensuality.” And so he's writing to a group of people who feel like, “Oh, Jesus died, rose from the dead, promises a helper. He is so gracious that I can do whatever I want to do.”

Versus in Galatians, their issue is also demonic. They are also being wooed because they believe that the cross and the work on the cross were not sufficient. And so in both cases, there is a loosening of what the real gospel actually is. 

I think underneath a lot of this is really passions, because I think a lot of times we think it is purely theology, and it is, but our passions and affections often drive the theology that we want.

If my desire, if my passions, are that I want to do with my body whatever I want to do, then I'm going to seek out those teachers that affirm those kinds of biases. I'm going to find teachers that say that same-sex sex is not actually sin. I'm going to find teachers that say, “Oh yeah, like pornography, that's not a problem. You're not hurting anybody.” If one of my passions is boastfulness, then I'm going to want to be a legalist, because that's underneath a lot of legalism. You want to take pride in the fact that you got it right by yourself.

Melissa: And so I think that's an undergirding issue that has to be addressed—the little idols that we have that then drive the theology that we find. Because I think we tend to only think of itching ears in the licentious category, that's why I love that clarification. But our itching ears are just feeding the flesh. So yeah, it can be, “Oh, we do what we want to do.” But it can also be, “Yeah, I want to prove I'm better than you.” Like, that's a passion of the flesh.

Jackie: Yeah, I think a big thing, even when I was studying this text . . . So, I'll talk a little bit about a paper I wrote maybe a year and a half ago called (it's gonna sound real dramatic, but when you're in seminary, you gotta sound smart) The Anthropological Appeal of Prosperity Teaching. In essence, I wanted to answer the question: “What is the human need being met when people listen to prosperity teaching?”

Because again, we do things for reasons. There is some type of itch being scratched. There is some type of need being met for people to listen to a health–wealth–prosperity gospel, or for people to listen to a self-righteous gospel. But I'll land on the prosperity for a second. 

One thing I discovered is that after the Fall, we see two things happening. We see pride obviously in them hiding from God. But we also see shame in them hiding from God.

I think pride says that I am everything, and shame says that I am nothing. And one of the avenues, or one of the things that the prosperity gospel perverts but gets right, is that it over-dignifies humanity. It makes you feel like you can do it. You are great. This is your purpose. This is your season. When you're dealing with people who have a low view of self, that is appealing. That scratches an itch, because it means that this gospel makes me feel like I have dignity.

The problem is they believe that flattery is actually the means of getting dignity, instead of just believing that they were made in the image of God. But if we don't have a theology of God, then being made in the image of God doesn't actually scratch or quench those thirsts.

And so I think when it comes to shame, shame is a big driver in a lot of the things we do. If you deal with shame in a religious sense, you might not want to listen to a prosperity teacher, but you do want to listen to people who help you feel like you are sufficient to actually be holy. The, if I just read enough, or I know all the theology, and I go to the right church, and I vote the right way, and I do all the right things. It's like, do you realize that you are actually living a very independent life, because you're being good, but you're not being righteous by virtue of what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Tim Keller talks about in The Prodigal God that real Christians are not people who just repent of bad stuff. They are also people that repent for the reasons. I think that's an itching ear when you acquire teachers who actually don't help you repent for real.

I don't even know the original question you asked, but I hope y'all hear what I'm saying. I'm trying to expose that itching ears is not just about sensuality, that itching ears is not just about being outwardly immoral. You can have an itching ear and also be a faithful minister in the church because you are living a life independent of the Spirit. You're leaning on law instead of leaning on grace. And so that is an itching ear too that only the Holy Spirit can reveal.

Melissa: Something that you said made me think. It's also a view of God that is very transactional, like, “I want You for what You can give me.” I think we can pretty this up in our world sometimes today. We would say, “Oh, I don't expect to have a mansion. I'm not trying to make money off the gospel.” But I think in subtle ways, I mean, I can see this in my own heart. I am always shocked by suffering. I mean, the first thing we say is, “Why is this happening to me?” You know, it's like we forget we're following a suffering Savior.

And so I think of that word prosperity, and our passions, we think life should be easy. We think it should never be hard. We become really uncomfortable when someone really starts reading the Bible and preaching the Word. We're going to hear things like, "Take up your cross and follow Me." And we don't. We don't want the cross. We want to be told it's going to be easy.

Jackie: So one passage that you had looked at, in addition to the first one we read, was 2 Timothy 3:1. You read it because you read better than me.

Melissa: That's not true. 

Jackie: Read that one. 

Melissa: You asked your question. You were a teacher, and you're still a teacher. I taught math.

Jackie: Oh, well, you know math. I'm trying to tell you, when my kids come to me with math homework, you need to go talk to your daddy. I'm sorry. I am the English communicator. When you want syntax, come to your mama. Math—I don't even want to know what nine times nine is, okay?

Melissa: 2 Timothy 3:1 says: 

But understand this, that in the last days, there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness but denying its power. (vv. 1–5)

Jackie: Where do you want me to start?

Melissa: That's the one I want to land on. What does it mean to have the appearance of godliness, and why is it so dangerous?

Jackie: One of the things that was so enlightening when I studied this passage is when I used to look at that list, I read it similarly to how you read Romans 1, which is talking to Gentiles and just some of the sins that are being made manifest in how they live. 

But verse 4 or 5 reveals that unholiness and heartlessness and unappeasable and slanderous are traits of those who have an appearance of godliness, which is interesting because it means that this list is actually present in the church. This list is actually present in our seminaries. This list is actually present in our pulpits, but it might be harder to discern because of the appearance of godliness.

Having an appearance of godliness means you have the external form of godliness, but not the inward reality, because you are denying the power that can make your profession of faith sincere. The scary thing, I think, about having an appearance of godliness is that oftentimes those who have it don't even realize it. Because to have an appearance of godliness means that you're not godly, means that you're not Christian. This is talking about people who are not converted. They are not Christian. They still have a heart of stone. They do not have a heart of flesh. They still don't have ears to hear, eyes to see, but they often don't know that. I consider Paul on the way to Damascus, and how he was pretty sure that he was on God's side, until God revealed that he, in fact, was not.

And so it means that there's a degree of God's mercy through the means of divine revelation that actually has to reveal to people that, “Oh, I actually don't know the Lord.” And one of the things I bring out in my message on this is that when you have a form of godliness, there is the potential that the people that your ears will . . . I ain't saying all y'all. I believe there's a lot of Christians here, but I'm also not ignorant to the fact that forms of godliness exist very well in these dynamics.

And so what I'm trying to say is, don't hear me saying shame all y'all. So let me talk generally. When people have a form of godliness, there is the potential that the teachers they will accumulate might have a form of godliness. Because if you have an itch to scratch, whether that's you're a lover of self, or you're a lover of money, or you're a lover of pleasure, then that means you want to accumulate teachers that actually scratch that particular itch. And so that means that you have a passion you haven't put to death. You want to accumulate teachers that help you to continue to maintain the form of godliness, because they are usually teachers that won't tell you to repent of the thing that you love too much. Does it make sense?

Melissa: Yeah, it's so. 

Jackie: The thing about even that list—lover of self, lover of money, lover of pleasure. I always think it's funny that when you look at the culture, you can find a teacher for every passion. If you love yourself, there are teachers for you. If you love money, there are teachers for you. If you love pleasure, there are teachers for you. And that's the reason why the text says they can accumulate, because it means they can heap up teachers who will suit or match or affirm that passion. That grieves me, which is why I think it's important for us to be different.

That's why I think it's important for us to be women who don't preach or teach or disciple to suit passions, but we are people who preach to passions. That means that we have to be delicate and discerning. That means we have to be like Paul, when he came into Athens. It said that he saw that the city was full of idols.

So wherever we are, whether it's our children, whether it's our churches, whether it's our small groups, we have to ask the question, what are the idols here? What are the passions here? How do I apply the gospel to that? Because the only way people's itching ears will be cured is if their passions are put to death. And the way we put passions to death is by seeing that Jesus Christ is better than everything we love more than Him. And so, that's the thing. 

We know that we can only discern the things of the Spirit with the Spirit. So if we have the Spirit in us, can we actually grow in discernment so that we can start to see, “Oh, I like this person because they're teaching to my itching ears?” How, as women, can we become more discerning so that we aren't trying to just listen to the leaders who speak what we want, but we can actually hear, “Oh, that's wrong?”

Like, how do we become those women? Because here's the thing: when I think about social media today, we're told the algorithm is actually feeding us what we want. I mean, if there's any place we're being fed . . . So if you start looking at a cute puppy, if you pause over that puppy one day, now you've got like ten puppies the next day, and then the next day you're buying the puppy. So, it's just like this process.

Well, in some ways, without the Spirit to intercept our hearts, we're all going to be prone to that scroll. But I do think we can grow in discernment. So how do we grow in discernment so we can really discern truth from error? How do we become women who are like, "That's a junior stuff, and I'm going after it, and I've got to stop"? How do we become those women?

You probably know the verse where the psalmist says, "Search my heart." I think prayer is probably number one, because God sees us. God knows what's in there. And it's a true thing to have a blind spot. It's a true thing to not know that what you're doing is wrong or unhelpful or not edifying. It's the Lord's kindness to reveal those things—to reveal it through His Word, to reveal it through His people.

And so, I think we have to ask the question, "Lord, show me any uncrucified passions that I have that are driving the kind of teaching I listen to. Show me, and then give me the humility to respond well." Because sometimes the Lord will show, and we don't want to see that it's me. It's just like, I have to pray both, “Lord, give me courage to repent, give me humility to respond, give me all that I need to confess to my people so they also can continue to help me get this plank out of my eye.”

And so I think praying is the first thing that helps cultivate discernment. But I would love to ask you the question, Melissa, how do we develop and cultivate discernment after we've prayed, after we've confessed, after we've noticed? How do we grow in that particular wisdom?

Melissa: Well, I think one thing that you said that's so important is just being aware that we might have blind spots, that we might not always see the world correctly. But I do have a little story I love to tell. Can I tell my little story?

Jackie: Okay.

Melissa: This is a true story, and I tell it multiple times. I probably told it on Let's Talk, so you may have heard this before. My friend Angela worked right after college as a teller in a bank. And one thing they wanted all tellers to be able to recognize was counterfeit money.

And so the way they taught them to spot counterfeit money was they only let them see real money, and they would teach them about real money. They'd be like, "Oh, look for this watermark, look for this . . ." and for the whole first month she worked there, that's all they saw. And then slowly they would start slipping counterfeit money in. And she said, as soon as they did, she was like, "Oh, you can spot it," because you had looked so much at real money, you could see the fake.

And this is what they realized: there were a million ways to be counterfeit. There was only one way to be true. And so by teaching what was true, she learned to see what was false.

So the reality is, if we want to avoid the itching ear syndrome, we have to be in the Word every day. We have to be looking at the truth—looking at it and letting it form and shape our passions. Let it form and shape our desires. And then we're gonna hear something that's off. And you're just like, "Yeah, it smells off . . ." It's kind of like bad milk. You're like, "There's something wrong." You may not know what's wrong, but you start to discern.

We can actually grow in that. The Spirit's living inside us, yes, but the means He uses is the Word to help us grow in learning to discern. It can feel really intimidating, "Oh, I'm gonna follow a bad leader, or I'm going to be a bad leader.” So, that's my other question for you. How is it tempting? Or maybe it's not. As someone who teaches God's Word, how could it be tempting to teach to itching ears? How do you see this happening today?

Jackie: I'll speak to a situation that happened to me a couple of years ago. I was studying something. I don't remember what I was studying. I was seeing something in the text that I knew could be true but needed to be tested. So I started looking at cross-references. I started looking at commentaries. But the thing that I was seeing—it wasn't heresy, it was a general truth—but I was trying to see if this a truth that applies to this text? Because I want to stay as close to the text as I can.

And the thing about it was, if I shared it, it would excite the people. If I shared it, it would come across as, "Oh, that's how you see that in the text." As I'm looking at the commentaries, I was like, "Don't nobody see what I'm seeing. So maybe I'm actually not seeing what I'm seeing."

And in my heart, there was this temptation to be like, "But it's true, so I'll keep it in the thing." But what was driving me was not the truth, but the applause. I thought about it like, "Oh, this is how people start drifting." I saw it; it scared me. I was like, "Oh, it's that thing.” It's that process. It's that pride that actually drives people to start saying things about the text that ain't right, and it's because of sin.

And so I think all of us have to be mindful, maybe, of our own sin patterns that might do something like that. For me, the thing was affirmation. The thing was praise. That could drive my interpretation. For others, it might be esteem as a hyperacademic, or something like that.

I don't know, I think the more watchful you are of yourself, maybe the safer you will be as a teacher, if that makes sense. Because even Paul says somewhere, "Keep a close watch on yourself, for it will save you and your hearers."

And so I think, as communicators of the Word . . . and it doesn't mean you have to have a pulpit. If you're a disciple-maker, you're a communicator of the Word. We just have to be watchful and honest at the same time, but not fearful. I can anticipate that some of you in this room may be so afraid to be in error that you don't want to say anything. I want to guard against that too, because that too would be disobedience. I want us to know that we follow a very good Shepherd. We have the Holy Spirit, who is a helper and a comforter. And so if we are leaning into His guidance, He will lead us in the way that we should go.

And so, I don't want you to be afraid of being in error. I just want you to be watchful. There is a difference.

Melissa: That's really good. What were we talking about? This, the power of the Word. But, speak to that again, because what you were saying is the power is not even in the person giving the message. The power is in the message. Speak a little bit to that, because that can give us confidence when we might feel insecure.

Jackie: As a communicator of Scripture . . . In Hebrews 4—that was the text that I was referencing. Because I'm so anxious, I'm probably going to forget where Hebrews is—chapter 4, verse 12:

For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 

The Word of God is powerful. It is effective. It is effectual. It produces fruit. It changes minds. It renews; it saves; it helps. It's a balm; it's a healing agent. Like, the Word of God is all the things, because the Word of God is the Word of God. He is living. He is powerful. He is strong. He is a healer. And so the Word of God is communicating and helping us to experience all that God has in Himself.

I think that's helpful, and it's encouraging, because it means that if at any point I'm communicating the Word of God and someone is changed by it, I have no room to boast, because the power was in the Word and not in me. We have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. I am just a steward of a treasure, and so I think power helps us be humble.

Power also gives us confidence, because it means that like even Timothy . . . Timothy was in Ephesus. They were losing their minds. He is over here like, "This is rough." You know what I'm saying? That's why Paul is writing to him, "No, preach the Word in season and out of season. Do the work of an evangelist. Endure suffering." Why? Because that's what you've been called to, but know that what you are doing will be produced by your faithfulness to the Word.

And so we are in an impossible situation. We have cultural dynamics that are literally being stirred up by Satan. Like, we have principalities and powers at work in our midst. We have division in our churches. We have disunity in our families. We have divorce on the brink. We have child abuse. We have perversion. Like, we have so much against us that for us to think that my mere sentence has the effectual power to change circumstances is crazy.

But the Word though . . . Like, the Word of God is what raises the dead. The Word of God is what moves mountains. And so, I think the more you read it, and even reflect on the power of the Word in your own life, it gives you the courage to know, "I don't have to be fancy. I don't got to have a degree. I could just say the Word."

You’ve got the Ethiopian eunuch over here just reading away. He is over here like, "I don't understand it, but I know it's saying something special." And then Philip comes and explains that thing. He’s like, "I want to get baptized." The Word is enough. The Word is sufficient. The plain, flat-footed preaching of the Word can do more. It can do it. Oh my goodness, I feel it—it could do exceedingly and abundantly above all you could ever ask or think.

You don't need fireworks. You don't need trampolines. You don't need lightning bolts. You don't have to have prophetic gifts if you walk in that thing. What I'm saying is, even if you just say John 3:16, when the Holy Spirit gets a hold of a heart, things change. 

Melissa: What I'm hearing you say is we don't have to be creative, but we need to be consistent. And it's okay to be creative. I'm creative, but you're submitting that creativity under your knowledge of the sufficiency of Scripture. You don't want to be so creative that you hinder clarity, but you also don't want to hinder the way God might have made you.

Jackie: Well, and in a sense, you're being creative, but you're not being new. Maybe that's another way to say it. It's not a new message. It's a very old message. And so we're trying to figure out how to creatively get it to a new audience. That's excellent. But we're never changing. So when it’s like, “I’ve got something new to tell you.” If it's new, it's probably a lie.

Melissa: That's right, yeah.

Jackie: Here's how Paul ends this verse. I think this is just really interesting, because, we know when we hear about Paul and Timothy, they were living in a very secular world. It was a world where Paul was being imprisoned, beaten for his faith, shipwrecked—all these things. It was not an easy life.

And so, you might even think he's going to spend some time saying, "Pray for me" and do all these things. But this is what he says: “As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

What can we learn from this verse? What would you encourage us all? What wisdom can we glean from this exhortation from him to a younger man?

One saying that I love is when mothers say when the kid comes home and they have an idea to do something with their friends. "That's stupid," and the mother turns to the child and says, "Huh, if everybody jumped off a cliff, I guess you'd do it too, huh?"

I think that undergirds Paul's exhortation, because I think in essence, he's saying, “Even if everybody loses their mind, even if everybody has passions that they don't want to die to, even if everyone doesn't want to endure suffering, as for you, this is what you're going to do.”

And he tells them, “As for you, always be sober-minded.” I've had a few drinks in my day, and I know what happens to my mind when I drink too much: I don't think straight. I don't see straight. I don't walk straight. I don't communicate straight.

And so, to be sober-minded is to have sobriety of mind. It means when you are suffering, suffering has a way of distracting you. When you are hurt, it has a way of keeping you unfocused. When you think about Hebrews 12:1, and how it says to lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily entangles and run the race that was set before us, looking to Jesus—there are so many demons, trials, and afflictions that want to keep us from looking at Jesus, that want to keep us from looking at Jesus.

It's like sobriety of mind. It says, “Stay focused!” The text literally means, in the Greek, keep your head.Don't allow anything to keep your mind from not thinking right. Because if you don't think right, you won't talk right. If you don't think right, you won't walk right. If you don't think right, you won't even listen right.

So, be sober-minded means don't let anything that is happening in Ephesus . . . Timothy, don't let anything that is happening in your church, don't let anything that's happening in the culture, don't let anything that's happening on social media keep you from having a right mind. Keep your focus.

He also says, “endure suffering. We don't like that, Melissa. It can be difficult to bear up under the weight of faithfulness. It can be difficult to deal with the costly nature of gospel ministry, whether that's what it has cost you in your friendships, whether what it's cost you is your job. Some of you have had to leave certain jobs just by virtue of wanting to be faithful. What it's cost you in your churches.

To endure suffering is to say that even though it's difficult, I refuse to turn to vices to help me cope. Even though it's difficult, I won't let my foot off the gas, because I know it may make life a bit easier for me. Difficulty in ministry has not made me want to leave Christ. It's made me want to leave ministry. Being faithful can sometimes make you say, "Man, I just want to do the easy thing. Let me just worry about my kids. Let me just worry about my family. Let me do something that doesn't cost me so much." But that's what it means to take up your cross: that God has called you to do a ministry that images Him.

I remember something you told me that has really kept me on some days. I was talking to Melissa a couple months ago, and you shared how someone asked you, "How do you keep going?" And I'm expecting Melissa Krueger to say something super profound. I'm expecting you to give me some type of exegetical New Testament, scholastic word from your husband.

Melissa says, "The way I endure is I cry a lot." And I think until you've had difficulty in ministry and in life, that won't make sense to you, but it's that thing that helps us to share in Christ's sufferings. I've come to recognize that the strength of ministry is in identifying with the Man of Sorrows. The strength in ministry is knowing that He is not only Alpha and Omega, but He is also a Man who is acquainted with grief.

And so, that is how you endure: you remember that He did it first.That is how you endure: you know that because I am in Christ, I have resurrection power to bear up under this weight. And the more I bear up under this weight, the more I will see Him. He will comfort me in all of my afflictions. And as He comforts me in all of my afflictions, He will use me to comfort others. And so, “endure suffering.” 

He also says, “do the work of an evangelist.” To this work we have been called—that work Timothy was called to—is that God did not just save us and send us back into heaven. God kept us here so we would be ambassadors of Christ.

That is why the enemy wants to distract us, and that is why the flesh is so all over the place, and that is why stuff gets hard: because God has a mission. God wants to save people and draw people to love the Lord with all of their heart, and with all of their mind, and with all of their soul. If you give up, if you stop, if you don't finish, there are people at stake. We are not here for ourselves. We are here to do the work of an evangelist.

If you didn't hear the gospel, where would you be? If someone did not preach Christ to you, what would you be? Would you know Him if there was not a messenger to communicate Him? And so we have to pass along that same service by doing the work of an evangelist.

And the work of an evangelist is not to preach some other gospel. Doing the work of an evangelist is not to preach politics. Doing the work of an evangelist is to preach that Jesus Christ came to die and to live so that sinners would know God. That is evangelism. That is the gospel message that Paul preached, the gospel message that Peter preached, the gospel message that even Abraham heard when God said that through him, many would come to know Him. “Do the work of an evangelist.”

He ends by saying, “fulfill your ministry,” which, it doesn't miss me that Paul knows he's about to die. He's about to be poured out; he's about to see God. I love that he's not being a hypocrite when he talks to Timothy about fulfilling his ministry, because he did it. He did it. He's finished the race.

And so, we don't know when our race is over. We don't know if the Lord will take us home tomorrow. We don't know if the Lord will take us home twenty years from now. We don't know when our ministry will be fulfilled, but we must keep going because God told us to. It is hard. It is costly. It is crucifying.

But the beautiful thing that Paul sets forward is that he knows this. Listen to this: 

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [This is what he's going to get on the other side:] Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. (2 Tim. 4:7–8)

So when we finish the race, that's what we'll see: God. When we finish the race, that's what we'll get: a crown of righteousness.

And so I guess that's the thing that has to keep us going. It's not the praise. It's not the affirmation. It's not the pats on the back. And it's not even this, "I'm just going to do it, just to do it." No. There is some joy set before us if we endure this cross. There is a crown set before us if we endure this cross.

I don't know if He's gonna do it; I would love if He did. But can you imagine the Lord showing you, when we get on the other side, all the people that came because of you? Not because of you, but because you showed up and were willing to be used by the King of kings and the Lord of lords. I think on that day, every single thing that ministry has called you to, every cost, will be worth it.

So that's why he says, “endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist,” and whatever else He said in that verse. I close my Bible.

Melissa: Can I ask you one final question? 

Jackie: Yes. I really hope this encourages y'all.

Melissa: I'm struck by this. It says, “fulfill your ministry.” And you know, when Paul was writing to the Colossians, he says, “See that you fulfill the ministry you have received from the Lord.”

We've talked about this a lot. I think sometimes in the Christian world, I want to fulfill your ministry. I compare. I look over the fence and think, Well, that looks more exciting.

What's like a final word you would just give to the women here, to be content in who God has made them to be, but to fulfill the ministry He's called them to give, whatever it might be? Because some days it might feel really insignificant when you're spending all day with a toddler or something. You’re just like, “Is this my ministry?”

So what encouragement can we close the time with, as we in whatever sphere God has called us to, that the ministry matters, and we can follow hard after God in fulfilling it?

Jackie: I don't know if this will answer your question, but it's what came to my mind. So we're just gonna go with it.

Ephesians chapter 6: Paul says: 

So that you also may know how I am and what I am doing, Tychicus the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord will tell you everything. I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage your hearts. (Eph. 6:21–22)

Really random verse. But when we did the Ephesians study, I ran across this name Tychicus. Every time I read Tychicus, I think of you. I don't think anybody will ever name their son that. But Tychicus was a deliverer of Paul's letters to the churches. When I was studying that passage, I'm like, I've never heard of this man. I've never heard a sermon on Tychicus. I ain't seen no Bible studies on Tychicus. I ain't seen nobody put a tattoo of Tychicus on the side of their neck.

But imagine if there were no Tychicus, would we have Ephesians? And so, to me, it means that I don't think we should take the position of judge and define the beauty, the worth, or the weight of the call God has on your life. Just be faithful. Just be faithful.

Because we don't know what God can do or what God is doing, and usually, whatever it is that God has called us to do, there is some measure of sanctifying grace that we receive by proxy of that particular gift. Meaning, whatever I’m doing costs me something. What I’m doing is painful. What I’m doing is difficult. There are things about God that I probably wouldn't otherwise know if I didn't have this call.

And in the same way, there are things about God that you can discover through your unique calling. So don't neglect just asking, “God, show me You, and what You've called me to do. Help me love You, and what You've called me to do. Help me to see and understand You, and what You have called me to do.”

I think having a view toward the sanctifying agent of your call can also encourage you to keep going, regardless if it feels like a big deal or not. Changing diapers, honestly, on most days feels like, I don't know how You’re getting glory out of this, but He is. Because I'm caring and loving and taking care of my child. And if nobody ever claps for that, the Lord sees it and says, “That looks like Me, because that's what I do with you every day: I take care of you.”

So that's it.

Nancy: So thank you, Melissa Krueger, for guiding this conversation. Thank you, Jackie. I would love to know—I know we're a little over time—if you could succinctly give, in light of everything that was shared, some vision casting for the women in the room, all of us who are disciple makers, as we exist in a world with error while God is calling us to communicate truth. Just any encouragement.

Jackie: I mean, I always go back to Psalm 1: “Blessed is the man who does not” do all the bad things. Yeah, list them out: sit in the seat of mockers, do all those things. But his delight is in the law. His delight—the passion, “his delight is in the law of the Lord and on it he meditates day and night.” and then it says this: “whatever he does prospers,” whatever.

And so our goal is just to root ourselves. And it gives that wonderful image. He's like a tree planted by a stream of water. So it starts with this beautiful image.

I think whatever the Lord might call us to do, the command is still the same: “Abide in Me, and you will bear much fruit. Apart from Me, you can do nothing” (see John 15:5).

So we all have the exact same thing: to leave this room and go do. And then what He will do with that—the fruit He will bear with that—is up to Him. We abide, and He bears the fruit, and He gets the glory. That's our goal. Amen.

Nancy: Well, let's pray.

God, we thank You for Your Word. We thank You that You saw fit to reveal Yourself to sinners. We thank You for giving us light. We thank You for giving us life.

And I pray even now that You would help us to take to heart the beautiful nature of being on mission for You. I pray that it wouldn't be so normal to us. I pray that we would be awestruck by what it is to be saved and then called a representative or an ambassador of a King.

I pray, Father, that You would help us to do the work of an evangelist, that You would help us to endure suffering, that You would help us to preach the Word, that You would help us to put to death whatever is earthly in us.

I just pray for everyone in their individual ministries—as mothers, as teachers, as preachers, as attorneys, as administrators, as nurses, as doctors, as professors—whatever it is that we do; God, I pray that You would keep us faithful. Keep us faithful. Keep us faithful. Keep us faithful in You so that we would love You with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and help others to do the same.

I pray that the rest of this day would be fruitful and edifying, and I pray that even if some of us go and take a nap, give us just immediate rest.

Father, we love You, and we enjoy You because of Your Son, in Jesus’ name. Amen.